Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 16th, 2016

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

Just very briefly, this was brought in about seven or eight years ago. When I first got on this committee, it used to be the committee would make recommendations on reports and they would just go off into the ether and disappear. The bureaucrats knew that if they could just come forward and get through the public accounts meeting—just get through it somehow with their careers still intact—they didn't need to worry about anything else and they could make all kinds of commitments because nobody was writing them down. They knew that.

We brought in a whole system and as a result of the Gomery commission more resources were given to the public accounts committee because of the work we do. As a result, every time we made a recommendation, it was tracked, and when the government responded that was linked up. If it wasn't good enough, the analysts brought it forward and said that the full question had not been answered, or not all the information was there, or conversely, they would say they did get all the information they wanted.

Now I don't want to make a big issue of that. We had an election. It's over, but to their great discredit, the previous government killed it, and all the work that had been done before then on this motion. This motion failed the last time with the last government. They killed all that work. It was just a crime and not nearly enough attention was paid, and I'll be making the same arguments about carrying over audit reports that weren't....

Sorry, Chair, there's a little residual stuff you've still got to wear. It takes a while—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

[Inaudible—Editor] we had during the election is starting to dissipate.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

It takes a while to unpack 10 years.

[An hon. member]

That's the problem with institutional memory.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Yes, that's right. That's why term limits aren't necessarily the right way to go.

I don't want to go on and on, but I did want to provide some context because those of you who haven't served on this committee are going to find it's very different from every other committee. As I said, the non-partisan is where we win the most.

This ability to keep that tracking and the same thing with the previous reports.... I don't want to cloud us up now but at some point I'm going to bring in some recommendations that we look at motions so that no government in the future can do that. That's just wrong. That was killing the work of the Auditor General, and we as the opposition didn't do a good enough job to make that a big deal. The media didn't do a good enough job making that a big deal, and we need to make sure that never, ever happens again. It's so wrong.

Anyway, I'm just glad to see this in here. It continues some very positive changes that were made when we were in minority. Those were the glory days of this committee because it really was about accountability, and nobody could control the outcome of any vote or any decision.

Anyway, I leave that with you, Chair. Thank you for the opportunity.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Christopherson.

(Motion agreed to)

The last one, I believe, is departmental action plans:

That all departments and agencies of the federal government that have been subject to a performance audit by the Office of the Auditor General of Canada provide a detailed action plan to address the audit recommendations which have been agreed to -- including specific actions, timelines for their completion and responsible individuals -- to the Public Accounts Committee and the Office of the Auditor General of Canada within six months of the audit being tabled in the House of Commons; and

that departments and agencies that are invited to appear before the Public Accounts Committee to discuss the findings of an audit should, when feasible, provide an action plan to the Committee prior to the hearing; and

that departmental action plans and progress reports received by the Committee be published on the Committee's website.

Madame Mendès moves the motion.

Mr. Christopherson, you have the floor.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, you may regret it, but you asked me to provide a little bit of guidance in terms of context. I just want to say, with a couple of points along the way, that the action plans are crucial. That's the part where the government actually responds to us and says, yes, as a response to the Auditor General, this is what we're going to do.

What used to happen in the past was that if a department wasn't called in for a public hearing, they didn't provide an action plan. All they had to do was sit back and see if they won or lost the lottery, meaning whether or not their chapter was chosen. If it was, damn, they had to go to all the trouble of doing an action plan; they knew they had to come in here.

By the way, and I'll say this a couple of times over the term, one of the things John Williams said—and it's so true—is that when this committee is doing the job it should, when a deputy minister hears they've been called to a public hearing in front of public accounts, it should ruin their week. I just say that to you.

The action plans were not being provided when they knew they didn't have to come in, so we've made that correction. Now they've been told that within six months, or when they're called in front of the committee, they have to do that action plan. Again, it's so that the work of the Auditor General has meaning and doesn't just get lost out there in all the details.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you. Those are very good points.

(Motion agreed to)

All right. We have passed the motion.

Sorry, I should have done this earlier, but I'll invite the analysts. We have two analysts, Édison Roy-César and Dillan. Perhaps you want to take the table.

Mr. Christopherson.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I seek guidance as to at what point we will move the continuation of the work we've doing.

The matrix was one piece of that, unless it was buried in there and I didn't catch it. I stand to be corrected, if that's the case, but there are two pieces to it. One is to activate the matrix and make sure that work is being done and to direct the analysts to carry out those functions. The second piece is the work we were doing that was in mid-stride. A lot of it can continue. The government used the excuse that they weren't there for that and killed a whole lot of it. The fact is that there's a lot of good work that can still be done from the previous Parliament that ought not to die.

It is the usual course of this committee to carry over any active work that can practically still be carried on. It's the work of the Auditor General, and it isn't decided whether or not his work is relative just because we had an election. His work is relevant and relative no matter what.

There are some circumstances. If we move a blanket motion to bring it all over, there may still be one or two pieces that are just impractical. If you're finalizing a report, it's pretty tough at that point for us to put, or for our new members...you know, things like that. But there is other stuff that should be kept alive. I'm just seeking when we'll move that motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

That motion can come now.

Again, we would move to the analysts to give us some direction, or to the clerk as to what those areas would be. Typically when you come into a new Parliament, you don't sign your name to a study that the former government has had power of. You typically start again. Mr. Christopherson's point is that there may be some things that will transition into this Parliament and into this committee.

Édison, can you give us an indication of what some of that might be?

[Édison Roy-César, Committee Researcher]

The briefing book that was distributed to the committee members says that the committee has not received the government's response to certain studies because of the election. In general, the government has 120 days to provide a response. So, given the 120-day time frame, the process is completed.

If the committee wanted to obtain a response to the reports the government has not responded to so far because of the election and the 120-day time frame, the committee should submit those reports to the House again. That is the only way to proceed if the committee wishes to obtain a response to those reports.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

We would need a motion. I had a few other ideas.

Was there anyone else who wanted to speak to this?

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, if I may, I would suggest that we send this whole matter to the steering committee to sort through because it gets into a lot of minutia. There's more than just that. There's the government reports, but there are also audits that were done where we were planning to hold a hearing and we didn't hold it. There's no reason we can't. The report is there to be read and we have the time, but we also can't do everything. I'm just saying that we should take this whole matter to the steering committee to sort it all out and bring back a motion that reflects the things we can continue to do practically and the things we cannot.

This motion can actually carry because it's part of that matrix motion, or the suggestion is there. Do you follow me?

The problem is that most of the members don't know the usual work that we do, so when I say, the usual work is sitting there, it doesn't mean anything. That's why I'm suggesting the whole thing be sent to the steering committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

A lot of the work in a lot of committees has been disrupted by the election. Some can be restored and brought back. Some is probably finished.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I think in the case of most committees, Mr. Chair, usually it's government business and bills that they're dealing with. When the election comes and there's a change in government, all of that dies. However, the work of this committee churns on, regardless of who the chair is or who the government is. It's just like the Auditor General. Whether it was Sheila Fraser or Michael Ferguson, it just churns on.

To have an artificial line that ends everything we did in terms of auditing doesn't make practical sense, but a blanket motion saying everything should come forward doesn't make practical sense either. I'm suggesting we take that whole little subject, shoot it off to the steering committee, and see what they can do to sort it out.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Can you put that into a motion?

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I move that the issue of the work of the committee in the previous Parliament be delegated to the steering committee for review and recommendations.

(Motion agreed to)

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

The schedule of our meetings will be Tuesday mornings from 8:45 until 10:45. That means that we have a meeting coming up pretty quickly on Thursday. There is no way the steering committee is going to have time to meet and then get back to this committee, so I invite some ideas or motions.

We've had an Auditor General's report in the interim. A week and a half ago he came down with a report. Some of you were at that lock-up where he spoke. That's a suggestion.

Mr. Christopherson.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

The normal practice—and we're masters of our own destiny; we're not bound by it—is that on the day the Auditor General presents his report, you, Chair, would be asked by him to chair that early morning meeting where MPs and senators get a chance to find out what's in it. It is then tabled in the House at 10 o'clock. At that moment, everything goes public. The next step is normally for the committee to call in the Auditor General to present his report. It is much like what he did in camera only it's a public meeting. Everybody can come as usual but not everyone is invited. It's a formal meeting of the committee. Then, after that presentation, the committee decides on the chapters we want to hold public hearings on. Then the clerk, with the steering committee and the chair, sorts out the order, the witnesses, and all of that business.

Therefore, if the Auditor General is available on Thursday, we are in a good position to be able to have him come in and present his report. That puts us right at the front end of new work, new business. We don't need any briefings beforehand. It's a self-contained thing and it gives us our first starting point. I would recommend, Mr. Chair, that we ask about the Auditor General's availability on Thursday to come present to the committee. This normally would have been done at the first meeting after it was tabled, but because of the beginning of Parliament.... I recommend that we try to do that on Thursday, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

My understanding is that he is available. He would be available to come on Thursday. Mr. Christopherson made that into a motion.

Any other debate on the motion? Any other discussion?

(Motion agreed to)

Mrs. Mendès.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

I have a question. Are we always going to meet here? Do we know where we're going to be meeting?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

It can change as different things happen. It will be in Centre Block typically. I met with the clerk and the analysts earlier. Typically, this is one of the good committee rooms in that there is easy access for the cameras.

Mr. Christopherson knows, too, that upstairs the Reading Room and the Railroad Room, those are better rooms as far as cameras are concerned.

Most of these meetings, when the Auditor General appears, are televised, so it will be in a room that provides that.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Most of our public meetings are up there for the cameras. The Auditor General is all about publicity, transparency, accountability. This is where we do our work.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

What we would want to do is.... Since it's the Auditor General it should be televised. That's my sense. We'll wait to hear if the room is available and if it is, then that will be in your notice of meeting. The clerk will have that out by the end of the day, or by Wednesday, for sure.

Mr. Christopherson.