Evidence of meeting #103 for Public Accounts in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was champlain.
A video is available from Parliament.
NDP
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Yes, for sure, absolutely. I'm just letting you know that we're three minutes over your time, but I'm trying to be flexible because you're new here.
Ms. Gillis, go ahead.
Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
Thank you for the question.
In 2011, the decision was made to replace the bridge. At that time, it was decided that the possibility of using a modern P3 model to build the bridge would be studied.
Once that decision was made, a multidepartmental team was established—over at Transport Canada, before the file was transferred to us. We hired PricewaterhouseCoopers and Arup, consulting firms with P3 expertise, to conduct an analysis, come up with a business plan, and help us determine the best way to proceed, a traditional model or a P3 model.
The government's decision in 2013 to use a P3 model was based on that information and analysis.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
I will just go back to our Auditor General.
Was there a difference in dates on when the decision on the P3 was stated? We thought that maybe our Auditor General said that the decision was made in 2011, and if I understood correctly through translation, you said 2013.
Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
Based on the chronology and the information that we have, the decision was made in 2011 to replace the bridge and to examine whether a P3 would be the optimal model.
Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
There was a mandatory P3 screen at the time, but the analysis on whether a traditional versus a P3 would be undertaken happened between 2012 and 2013, and then the decision to proceed with the P3 was announced in 2013.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you. That was good questioning.
Mr. Chong is next, please.
Conservative
Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to build on the line of questioning that Madam Mendès had started on.
I want to understand what exactly is the case with the payments and the revenues. Originally, as I understand it, the tolls that were to be collected for passenger cars and trucks would go into the consolidated revenue fund. Is that correct?
Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
That's correct. We'd be returning—
Conservative
Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
That, obviously, is not there anymore, and I'm not sure that Madam Mendès had her question answered. I think what she was asking is this. There will be public transit, rapid transit, using this bridge. Is there a source of revenue that will be generated for the consolidated revenue fund as a result of trains crossing that bridge?
Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
There is none that I am aware of right now, no.
Conservative
Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Those trains will be crossing the bridge for free.
Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
I do not believe that there's an agreement on those trains crossing the bridge just yet.
Conservative
Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
But is the idea that they will be charged some sort of fee for crossing the bridge, or will they be able to cross the bridge without charge? What's the thinking on that right now?
Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
That decision has not been made, so I cannot say.
Conservative
Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
On the other flow of payments, my understanding is that the Government of Canada will have to make payments to the partner for the operation and maintenance of this bridge. What were those payments expected to be prior to the decision to remove the tolling on the bridge?
Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
Those payments are.... I believe it's in the Auditor General's report, and I don't want to quote the wrong number. We can get it for you. It's in the Auditor General's report for operating and maintenance over the 30 years, and that is the amount right now that will be paid. That is the contractual amount.
Conservative
Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Obviously that amount will be increased, and I'm assuming that you're in negotiations to increase those payments to the partner because of the decision to remove tolls, which will result in higher traffic volumes, which will result in higher wear and tear. Is that correct?
Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
We're in negotiations with the partner to reduce the overall cost, because they will no longer have to construct items and do things regarding tolling. We are looking at what the wear and tear could be and what the implications could be for the maintenance and service costs over a period of time.
Conservative
Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Are you telling this committee that the decision to remove the tolling plazas, the electronic tolling equipment, and other infrastructure associated with tolling is going to be far greater a reduction in costs than the increase in maintenance and wear on tear over the lifespan of the first 30 years?
Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
I don't know the numbers offhand for the maintenance. I will ask Natalie to.... The amounts are in negotiation right now.
Conservative
Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Okay, because that would strike me as unlikely. I would be surprised if that were the case. Thirty years is a long time, and an additional 20% increase in traffic over that 30 years I think would be not insignificant in terms of wear and tear.
Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
It depends on the durability of the bridge, the engineering assessments of what the impact on the bridge might be.
