Public Accounts Committee on June 12th, 2018

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Of course, I would have liked to have this discussion after Mr. Wernicke's appearance. His presence is important and I would have liked to continue the conversation.

That said, I would just like to clarify something. Clearly, our objective was to review the report on the Phoenix pay system with the deputy ministers and associate deputy ministers of the day. The report pertains to problems identified before the Phoenix system was launched.

Today, on June 14, only the current deputy minister of Public Services and Procurement Canada is appearing before the committee; that was not our original objective. We wanted access to the deputy minister of the day in order to discuss with him the problems identified in the report.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

It's highly unusual, and I may add unlikely, to have three deputy ministers here, some of whom are not even in the service. In fact, I'm not sure any of them are still in the public service. One of them is, I guess, but it's highly unlikely that we would have them with the current DM. The department and the current DM would typically show up.

I have never yet seen a committee haul in DMs from six years back and have them all at the same table—

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

It's a special case.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

—and Mr. Massé, we have not heard that they're unwilling to come, but it may be in the fall.

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I see what you mean.

Obviously, this is a special case. This is an important report on an important project that has important challenges still, and we would like to have these people who have been witness to our—.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Absolutely.

Go ahead, Mr. Christopherson.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I still haven't heard anything that suggests we can't do what Madam Mendès has suggested.

If the deputy minister, on the 14th, wants to score some brownie points and help us out and move to the 19th, she can, but if not, my suggestion was that we stay with that meeting, but on the 19th let's set aside the idea of the previous deputy ministers and get the AG in.

That way, assuming we don't rise before June 22—which is not likely, given the current mood in the House—we could still go ahead, have the meeting on Phoenix on Thursday, and then on the following Tuesday, June 19, hopefully the AG will be available. If the AG is not available, that's a problem, and it may be that we just can't get the AG in before the summer break. It would be a shame, and maybe we could hold a special time that we could agree on that would meet that need to tuck it in.

However, I'm not sure that wiping out the 14th with the deputy minister of Phoenix in order to have the AG come in is the right thing to do. If the DM can voluntarily move and accommodate the AG for the 14th, everything is perfect; if not, let's go with Phoenix and hope that the AG is available on the 19th, and I would just leave it because we're running out of time.

If we can't do it on the 19th, is there any way we can find an hour and 15 minutes between then and now to hold that one session with the AG, so our staff can be working on the report over the summer? It's still fluid, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Okay.

I have Mr. Arya, Mr. McCauley, and Ms. Mendès.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

Mr. Chair, I have to disagree with my colleagues on this side of the table. I think the current deputy minister's availability is very important for this committee. She may not be the person involved in the Phoenix development that was covered by the Auditor General's report, but the acceptance of the Auditor General's recommendation is done by the current deputy minister and implementation of the recommendations of the Auditor General will be done by this current deputy minister, so we need her to be here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

That's exactly what our analyst just told me as well, so you're correct, Mr. Arya.

Now I have Mr. McCauley.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Briefly, that's exactly the point I was going to make, Mr. Arya. Thank you.

She is responsible for that, but she is also responsible if we are to believe there is a culture issue. She is responsible for that culture change in that department, which is responsible for this to begin with, so it would be wonderful to hear about that issue as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Correct. Thank you.

Now we'll go to Ms. Mendès.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is a question of timeline. We know for a fact that we will not be finishing Phoenix before we rise. If the former deputy ministers are not available on the 19th, we won't finish before we rise, so what is the rush? Why don't we do chapter zero, which I believe is the whole point of the reports of the Auditor General this spring, or the most important one, and deal with that, finish that, and try to get a report going?

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Do you mean on the 19th?

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

I mean on the 14th, because on the 19th we know we can't get the former deputy ministers, but if we only do the Auditor General on the 19th, we won't have time to give instructions or even get a draft of a report before we rise because there won't be time.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Well, we'll hold the hearing and we'll give the—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Just one moment.

Mr. Wernick had his hand in the air, or were you asking if you could leave, sir?

[Michael Wernick]

No, I volunteer to stay as long as your want.

I was just wondering whether I'd get a chance to make a very brief closing statement.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Yes, you will.

[Michael Wernick]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Go ahead, Mr. Christopherson.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I rarely disagree with my colleague on process and I appreciate that she has provided the framework for this. I think that if we can go with the 14th for the deputy minister, we should, unless she can make the move to the 19th, opening up the 14th for the AG. That would be perfect. Then it would be Mr. Wernick, followed by the AG, directions to our staff, and then on to the meeting with the Phoenix—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Just—yes, finish, please.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Ideally, in a perfect world, the deputy minister coming in on the 14th would voluntarily agree to come on the 19th, and the AG would be available on the 14th. If that can't happen, then hopefully it will be the Phoenix deputy on the 14th and the AG on the 19th.

The fly in the ointment is if the AG can't do either the 14th or the 19th, but that's about as far as we can go in planning today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

I am just being told by our clerk that on the 14th we have already received affirmation that the deputy minister of Phoenix is coming, together with the Secretary of the Treasury Board, who is planning on being here on the 14th.