Public Accounts Committee on June 14th, 2018

[Peter Wallace]

Yes.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Let me ask Mr. Ferguson.

It's not your fault, but how do we ever move forward with addressing these issues when all we hear—

[Peter Wallace]

I'm coming back to that. Allow me the time.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

How will we ever address this stuff when all we hear is, “Well, I wasn't here at the time”?

I'm not blaming Ms. Lemay for flicking the switch, because she wasn't here at the time, but how do we get past this?

I'm aghast at how the Treasury Board—

[Peter Wallace]

I'm trying to be helpful—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Ferguson.

[Peter Wallace]

—and then I need to be clear.

[Michael Ferguson]

Again, that's one of the cultural issues that I identified in the message, the fact of the tenure of deputy ministers in these positions. I believe there were four different deputy ministers, including Ms. Lemay coming in right at the very end in PSPC, in that time period.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Mr. Wernick said the time period was perfectly fine. There was nothing to worry about with the length.

[Michael Ferguson]

Again, that type of turnover of deputy ministers, I believe, is something that is problematic. We see it all of the time in our audits, when we do an audit and then come back with a follow-up audit, I think sometimes there is, in fact, a third deputy in the middle there. We do the audit under one deputy minister. By the time we come back and do a follow-up audit, it's a whole other deputy minister and you get that same answer of “Well, I wasn't there at the time.” There's nothing they can do about it. They weren't there at the time.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

No.

[Michael Ferguson]

But again fundamentally, I think it's the fact that there is so much churn, and so much rapid churn, at the deputy minister level.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Great.

Mr. Wallace, I won't blame you because you weren't there, but how does it—

[Peter Wallace]

I just need to be very clear about why—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

[Inaudible—Editor], Mr. McCauley. Go ahead.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'm not blaming you. I'm just trying to figure.... This is such an explosive report that anyone would have said, “Oh, my God, this has to go to the very top.”

[Peter Wallace]

I understand that point.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

How does Treasury Board just not pass it on to anyone?

[Peter Wallace]

I understand the point fundamentally, and the reason that I referred to that is that I'm about to give you information. The other information I give you is information of which I have direct knowledge because I am there. I'm just trying to explain to you that I'm explaining something that I know indirectly rather than directly. That's my only point, to make sure that you understand very clearly the accountabilities, because you have clearly seen that I will accept the accountability and will act accordingly.

On January 29, 2016, the Gartner report was communicated in draft form by the comptroller general to the associate deputy minister and assistant deputy minister of Public Services and Procurement Canada. These are not low-level officials, just to be very clear. It's transmitted in the appropriate way.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

The comptroller general is a very high level. Would he have read the report, seeing as though he paid a quarter of a million dollars for it?

[Peter Wallace]

I cannot imagine. So again—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'm sorry, you can't imagine he would have read the report?

[Peter Wallace]

No. Just one moment, please.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Okay, so that's what I'm getting at. The comptroller general, a very high-ranking position, receives a very explosive report saying that we're in big trouble here, and he doesn't send it up his ladder to the deputy minister or the Treasury Board president, and doesn't send it to a deputy minister. I have people in my riding who can't get paid. Ms. Lemay can attest. I've gone and bothered Ms. Lemay and Mr. Linklater about getting Phoenix pay issues settled. I know enough to go to the top. If I had the Gartner report, why would it not be just common sense to go to the very, very top?

[Peter Wallace]

To be very clear, I understand and appreciate the question. It's not one that I can answer in detail because I was not there. The information I can provide you with...and you understand that point and you understand the reason that I say that very clearly. You also understand and appreciate that the issues here are deeply fundamental, and you also understand and appreciate, because we are having this dialogue, that we welcome this dialogue and we understand from a public service perspective....

I am a new deputy. I have spent a considerable period of time in the Government of Ontario. I'm privileged to have led the City of Toronto. I'm privileged to be the Treasury Board secretary, the deputy of finance. I understand and accept the accountabilities fundamentally, and that one of the core things we are working on here collectively as part of this dialogue is to ensure that the notion of communication is an absolutely critical element of that.

To be very clear, I accept the orientation of your question and accept responsibility for driving that message forward. That is why I'm here.