Evidence of meeting #112 for Public Accounts in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was data.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Alex Nuttall Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
When we're looking at this issue, are there programs in place to give the very bare minimum for our young people on reserves to be able to actually achieve and get through? Are we providing those utensils, or is it just to the system as a whole?
4:20 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
You mentioned the measure about money. Money is part of the equation, but it's not the only one.
You need more capacity. There are places where services are not there. The capacity is not there.
As you mentioned, it's not just the education system. You can have a good education system, but if you have kids who are in a community that's in crisis, you may not get a great result. There are other factors that we need to work on. It's a comprehensive approach. It's not just about the education per se.
I would not say we have a system in place that is working well at the moment. The Auditor General mentioned it. It's not necessarily a “one size fits all” approach; it's not necessarily the same solution. We have places where things are going better, but there are places where it's not going well, that's for sure.
Housing is attached to this, too. There are other factors, violence that is attached to this. There are many factors that play on the success, or not, of kids.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Shaun Chen Liberal Scarborough North, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to start off by acknowledging that we are on the traditional Algonquin territory.
I'm a big believer that education is an incredible social equalizer. We've talked quite a bit about that today. I do believe it is an important topic for us to talk about on the path to reconciliation.
In examining the achievement gap, graduation rates were compared between on-reserve first nation students and those of other Canadian students.
Does the data on other Canadian students include indigenous students who are not living on reserves?
4:25 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
It would include all Canadians living off reserve.
In our case, one thing it doesn't include—and that's an issue—is in some places, if I'm coming from a town and I'm moving to another town, I'm going from one school to another school, but there's a code that follows me. If I'm a first nation student on reserve in the first nation system and I go to Toronto, and I go to a public school in Toronto, we may lose that individual because they go into the provincial system.
There is an issue, in our case, for some of the dropouts. To be honest, I don't know how many of them. That's not to say the stats are necessarily better, but we're missing some individuals.
When we talk about off reserve, it's the off-reserve population in general.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Shaun Chen Liberal Scarborough North, ON
In looking at other Canadian students, you are including indigenous students who quite possibly might have moved from on reserve to off reserve. To me, it's very important that we drill deeper into the data.
Coming from nine years of serving on the Toronto District School Board, I know there are key groups in the public education system that routinely are pushed out of school. That includes both the black student population and the indigenous student population. When we make that comparison, and we've talked quite a bit about comparing the same data as opposed to different ways in which you calculate graduation rate, you need to parse out the fact that there are indigenous and black students that historically and continue to disproportionately be pushed out or drop out of school. To me, it's very important, because that would result in a picture that clearly tells you there is an extremely disproportionate achievement gap between indigenous students and those who are non-indigenous across the country.
I note that in the Toronto District School Board, there were specialized programs and alternative schools created specifically for indigenous as well as black students. One is the Africentric Alternative School and the other is the First Nations School.
The concept of reconciliation is not only about ensuring that indigenous students on reserves are given the educational opportunities they need to succeed, but it is also about looking at the country as a whole and how we deliver education. Are we inclusive? Are we incorporating the lived experience, histories and cultures of different diverse communities? Only then, with that understanding of indigenous knowledge and experiences among the general public, can we as a country truly move towards reconciliation with the indigenous peoples.
I also want to follow up in terms of gender analysis. In the data that you look at, have you considered, for example, in education how girls versus boys might be performing and whether that information has been looked at?
4:25 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I don't have the data in front of us, but it would not be a surprise to you that the girls are outperforming the boys. I don't remember by how much, but the data I have seen in the past tends to show that girls are doing better.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Shaun Chen Liberal Scarborough North, ON
You have a plan in front of us. I note that in wave three, for 2019 to 2020, you're looking at co-development with first nations governments in areas like education.
Can you talk a bit more about what that looks like and how that will lead to self-determination and enable indigenous communities to create the types of education environments that will lead to success?
4:25 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
As I mentioned before, governments have tried in the past to do devolution. It was done in the 1970s and the 1980s. Mostly what we did at the time was to transfer programs as they were, with not necessarily the appropriate level of funding and at the community level.
What we're trying to do now is more to have a discussion at the aggregate level on how exactly you will plan for this, and also about the accountability structure. The model we have is not necessarily a one size fits all.
One model we have that is being developed now is the one in B.C. It allows for a better understanding, a better capacity, to analyze the data, create new data and actually create and change the programs. That's what we would like to see in the future.
That's what we're doing now. As was mentioned before, success is not measured by funding. You need to be able to remove the funding issue from the equation so you can focus on the rest.
I think that's where we are now. We're in a situation where we can say we are addressing the funding issue, so now it's an issue about how you organize the service: How do you do it and what do you do?
That's the discussion we are having, and it's a very different discussion from the one I've had in the past.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Shaun Chen Liberal Scarborough North, ON
With respect to the data, I could add that it's very important to track a student as they move through the system. There are students, as the Auditor General has pointed out, who might be pushed out or drop out of school in grades 9, 10 or 11. There are also students who might not graduate in grade 12, but they might do an extra year or an extra two years and graduate.
4:30 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Shaun Chen Liberal Scarborough North, ON
They need to be tracked. There are students who might leave an on-reserve educational institution and complete their education elsewhere.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
You're a minute and a half over.
Thank you, Mr. Chen. They were good comments. That's why I didn't want to cut you off.
We'll go to Ms. McLeod, please.
October 17th, 2018 / 4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Thank you, Chair.
Certainly the community well-being index, although it was not a tool with finesse—I remember using that tool, and it gave some very crude results—you recognized that there were some real issues from those crude results. I think the fact that the instrument is going to be replaced through co-development of another instrument is a positive thing—it's a good thing— although the CWB did have some value at the time to point out some huge discrepancies.
I'm much more concerned regarding your findings in the education area.
The next place I want to dive into is the $42 million. This is a preparatory program for entry into post-secondary education. What was the name of that program? Was it equally dispersed across the country? I mean, an 8% rate of people then actually entering....
Could you give me some details, please?
4:30 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
I'll start, and then I'll ask Mr. Martire to fill in some of the details.
I think the deputy explained, as well, that it was funding provided to the educational institutions to provide this type of preparatory program. Our concern was that only 8%—
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
I'm sorry, can I cut in for a second?
Was it provided to the post-secondary institutions or the first nations institutions?
4:30 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
To clarify, it was to the students. We're paying for the students' tuition and costs to go to university. That's what it has done.
4:30 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
But the preparatory program itself was delivered by the university.
4:30 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Yes, but we pay the students who go to the preparatory program. We don't manage the program.
4:30 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
Okay.
What we identified was that only 8% of the students who entered into those preparatory programs completed them. It would be a whole different question of how many of those 8% who were able to complete them went on and completed post-secondary education. Only 8% of the students who started the program actually qualified to get into the post-secondary program. I don't know how many of them would have completed it.
I'll ask Mr. Martire if there are any other details to add to that.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Was this administered by the different bands or by the department?