Public Accounts Committee on May 14th, 2019

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

This is just to make sure that we have it there. There were no cuts. There was this investment of $41 million for the foreseeable future.

I go back to Mr. Christopherson's comments about the fact that we had never seen cuts before in the budget of the Office of the Auditor General. I've asked the analyst to give me a very quick overview of past years. From 2011 to 2014, your budget was about $85 million a year—$75 million, plus in the supplementary estimates you would get $10 million more.

After 2014 it went down to $77 million and there were no supplementaries. In 2015-16 it was $78 million, and in 2016-17 $78 million. You have, then, had fluctuations in your budgets on the decreasing side in the past 10 years.

[Sylvain Ricard]

Going by memory here, it's one of two things when there was a fluctuation in those years. One could be that we had some amounts that were statutory in certain years and an amount of money would come in that year to, let's say, pay a lump sum, a retroactivity adjustment or something like that which was done that year, so you see it going up, and it would go back down to normal afterward. That's one thing.

The other thing is that maybe in those years it was the strategic and operating review, the overall government reduction. Everybody was reduced, and we were asked to apply it within the organization. I think that was in 2011, but it may have been in the following two years before it fully impacted. Again, I am going by memory here.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

From 2011 to 2014, you actually had an increase. You were at $85 million, more or less. Then you came down to $77 million. I'm just trying to understand how the office managed to operate with a pretty significant decrease between 2013 and 2014 of $7 million and why.

What was the reason for that abrupt cut? Was that part of the cuts throughout government?

[Lucie Cardinal]

That cut was mainly through the SOR. We were at $85 million in 2011-12. Now our budget is more at $78 million, and this increase brought us to $88 million.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

I get the $10 million for employee benefits. That has nothing to do with your operational budget. That's part of what you need to pay your staff. That's okay.

That's paid directly by the Treasury Board, if I understand correctly.

[Lucie Cardinal]

It is.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

Okay.

Is your operating budget $78 million, or $78 million plus the $8 million?

[Lucie Cardinal]

Our operating budget is $78 million, if we forget about the EBP.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

What is the EBP?

[Lucie Cardinal]

Sorry. That's the employee benefit plan, that $10 million.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

Are you telling me that before last year your budget was $70 million?

[Lucie Cardinal]

There are a lot of numbers here when we talk about budgets. It can be what is in the main estimates, or what our cost of operation is. When you're talking about our budget, do you mean really what you approve in the main estimates or our total funding?

[Sylvain Ricard]

Let me offer something that might help here, maybe one way.

As Madame Cardinal said, there are so many numbers and so many ways of looking at numbers. There's the budget forecast. There are all sorts of numbers.

If I bring it back just to what this committee recommended to the House this year, it is $78 million. There's $78 million here. Last year, that amount was—

[Lucie Cardinal]

It was $69 million.

[Sylvain Ricard]

Okay, it was $69 million.

Last year, this committee recommended to the House $69 million. When we read the opening statement, we said $69 million. That was the main estimate, the main vote.

This year, the equivalent is $78 million. The difference between the two is the $8 million.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

Okay.

[Sylvain Ricard]

Again, it's a bit complicated to be able to see all the same numbers. It depends which angle you look at them from.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

Yes, it's confusing.

[Sylvain Ricard]

That might be a simpler way to look at it. The main estimates that this committee recommended went up by the amount that we got in the 2018 federal budget.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

Okay.

Now, the amount that had been requested in the 2018-19 budget by Mr. Ferguson, of $21 million overall, was that per year? Was it $21 million per year that was requested?

[Sylvain Ricard]

It would have been ongoing, as the $8 million is ongoing.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

Okay.

The $8 million, I get. That's what you got. However, the request was for $21 million ongoing to be able to fully fund the 595 staff and all the operational requests you need for the studies you do.

[Andrew Hayes]

Yes. That's correct.

It might be helpful to share some of the analysis that Mr. Ferguson did to support his request.

In the summer of 2018, Mr. Ferguson wrote to the Minister of Finance and explained that, back in 2011, before the strategic operational review, the budget cuts that we voluntarily participated in at the request of the minister of finance of the time, our budget was $74.5 million. Government program expenditures were $244 billion. Effectively, our budget represented 0.03% of overall government spending. As time moved on, he dealt with the various numbers in the middle, but what he was saying was, to maintain our....

Let me back up a bit. Without the additional funding that he was requesting, in addition to the $8 million, our proportion compared to overall government spending on program expenditures would decrease to 0.023% in 2020-21. Basically, in 2011, we were at 0.03%. In 2020-21, we would be at 0.023%. He was requesting this additional funding to get to 0.027%, so not even to the same proportion that we were at in 2011 but where he thought that we would be able to operate in the way that we should to produce the audits that we are expected to produce.

In terms of the $21 million that he initially requested on behalf of the office for budget 2018, he actually dropped that number. We got the $8.3 million. He dropped the number from $21 million to $17.7 million. He asked for an additional $10.4 million, not for the entire $21 million last year.

I hope that helps.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

It somewhat helps.

[Andrew Hayes]

It's confusing without looking at numbers.