Evidence of meeting #18 for Public Accounts in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was training.
A video is available from Parliament.
9:25 a.m.
MGen Derek Joyce
I'm not in a position to answer that question, Mr. Chair.
9:25 a.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Somebody should be, because it's not just about going forward, it's also about figuring out how we got here.
Again, I want to emphasize that we're doing this publicly. Through you and to the other deputies, we're going to be pounding on it this entire Parliament. So everybody get attuned to the fact that we're going to be talking an awful lot about data and about its accuracy, its timeliness, and its effective analysis. It's going to come down like a sledgehammer time and time again. We're not backing off this.
The Auditor General has asked us for special attention on this. We've accepted that. It's a priority for this Parliament.
Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair?
9:25 a.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
That's beautiful.
Moving along, I wanted to address the issue quickly in the brief time I have.
The Auditor General's report, in the last line on page 8, reads, “Furthermore, we found that the Army Reserve units did not have the funding they needed to fully support all required unit activities”. That in itself is not unusual. Not enough funding; that happens, and we identify that.
Then the Auditor General's opening remarks today point out that 27% of your overall budget went to more full-time reservists and not the part-time, and that you further reallocated funds from the reserve to other parts of defence. Explain, please.
9:25 a.m.
LGen Marquis Hainse
Mr. Chair, can I ask General Rob Roy MacKenzie to answer that question?
9:25 a.m.
Brigadier-General Rob Roy MacKenzie Chief of Staff, Army Reserve, Department of National Defence
Mr. Chair, thank you for the question.
There are the two components: the part-time reserve, and those in full-time service that support the unit activity very heavily. Each unit, one of our 123 units, has a cadre of full-time staff, regular army and full-time reservists as support. There are a few numbers in each. Those people are absolutely critical to designing and supporting all the logistics in preparation for the training on a day-to-day basis when the part-time folks come in. That's why it is a fairly substantial chunk of the funding.
9:25 a.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
But it's not rightfully part of the original allotment, according to the Auditor General. That's not what the money was there for.
Talk to me about the money that was redirected out of the reserve fund to other aspects.
9:25 a.m.
BGen Rob Roy MacKenzie
This past year all the funding was spent by the army reserve program. In previous years we were unable to spend it with our reserve units, so it was reallocated with proper prioritization within the rest of the army. Some of that was O and M.
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you very much.
We'll move back to the government side, for seven minutes.
Mrs. Zahid.
June 7th, 2016 / 9:25 a.m.
Liberal
Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, witnesses, for providing your input.
My question is with regard to the Auditor General's recommendation, paragraph 5.32, on guidance for domestic missions.
It was found that in many instances key equipment, such as reconnaissance vehicles, command posts, and communications equipment, was lacking. I see that your department has addressed...in your detailed action plan, where it is implied that inventories must first be taken to identify equipment shortfalls and gaps, and assess which equipment you really lack.
Does the department have an approximate estimate for how much funding or resources will need to be allocated to close this equipment disparity between the reserves and the active units?
9:30 a.m.
LGen Marquis Hainse
Mr. Chair, we are working with the budget that has been given to us right now, so I have no indication whether we're going to have an increase or a decrease. The army gets its fair allocation of that budget, and I have to work within that budget, but there are different allotments of money for different programs.
Procurement is certainly a program that provides a lot of money, not just to the army but also to the Canadian Forces, which we have to prioritize. In the short term, we are committed to using what we refer to as the minor capital program to address some of the pressing issues for the reserve unit.
I'd like to make a point here with regard to the reserve unit. Priority will always be given to those units that have a responsive role, and I refer here to those territorial battalion groups.
Reserve units, as you know, as a rule do not operate as units. They will operate as part of an amalgamation of units or subunits to create one of these as a territorial battalion group, and we have to make sure that this territorial battalion group will have the necessary equipment to be able to perform its task. When we feel they don't have the necessary equipment, equipment will be pooled from the various brigades to give those units priority. That's what has been done in the past and that's what will continue to be done in the future.
But as was pointed out by the Auditor General, we have to do better in making sure that all of the units have at least the minimum requirement for vehicles and minimum requirement for communications, and this is part of our action plan to take account of what all of the units have at this point. That will need to be dealt with according to priority along with the other competing resources.
9:30 a.m.
Liberal
Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON
Don't you have any assessment, even for the minimum amount of equipment that you have mentioned, as to how much funding you would require to close the gap?
9:30 a.m.
LGen Marquis Hainse
I certainly don't have a number for you today on this.
Some of my colleagues can help you.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
9:30 a.m.
BGen Rob Roy MacKenzie
I think we can do that. The projects, the vehicles that were spoken about for our territorial battalion groups, are one example, and we could certainly provide those numbers, and as we move forward with other projects we can certainly provide that information.
9:30 a.m.
Liberal
Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON
My next question is with regard to paragraph 5.80, which called to “ensure that budgeted annual funding for Army Reserve units is consistent with the expected results”.
The Department of National Defence responded that it assigns resources to ensure that all mandated tasks are funded and will continue to monitor these tasks and see whether they are consistent with expected results. However, the Auditor General found that the reserves are funded based on each soldier participating in unit activities for 37.5 days per year, along with another seven days of collective training. This would entail such activities as training, administration, civic and ceremonial duties. Also training regarding National Defence policies is expected to be covered in this short period of time.
Does the department believe this rather short amount of time is sufficient for all of the above, and if not, how many days would you recommend?
9:30 a.m.
LGen Marquis Hainse
Mr. Chair, may I ask General MacKenzie to answer?
9:30 a.m.
BGen Rob Roy MacKenzie
Mr. Chair, thank you very much for the question. It's a very good one.
As was mentioned, we're undertaking a complete funding model review to address this. We started various working groups this past year, with consultation through our divisions and right down to the Canadian brigade group level, so the 10 Canadian brigades that command the reserve units across the country, with their comptroller staff, as well as their deputies, to figure out exactly the best balance based on activities that we've done historically, to look at this model and improve it for the future. We also want to include a better breakdown between our reserve pay and the operation and maintenance, so we want to move soldiers and equipment around the country to get the right balance, since organizations are different and asymmetric across the country, and those costs are different. We do want to revise the model and make it better.
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON
Do you have any idea of how many days you would recommend?
9:35 a.m.
BGen Rob Roy MacKenzie
I wouldn't want to situate the estimate. We are looking at somewhere in the 40 to 50 range. Those are the estimates we're looking at now. The facts will tell us the precise numbers.
We are going to include it in this year's budget. We're in the process right now of finalizing it for the August-September time frame, so that it actually is included in our next year's fiscal planning as a working and applicable model.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
You only have a few seconds. Are you good?
Okay, we'll move back to Monsieur Godin.
Welcome. You have the floor and you have five minutes.