Evidence of meeting #2 for Public Accounts in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was recommendations.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Ferguson  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Nancy Cheng  Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Good morning, everyone.

Welcome to the public accounts committee. This is meeting number two of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, on Thursday, February 18, 2016.

Today we are very pleased to have appearing before us Mr. Michael Ferguson, the Auditor General of Canada. Welcome.

He is accompanied by Jerome Berthelette, assistant auditor general, and by Nancy Cheng, assistant auditor general. Appearing as well are Mr. Martin Dompierre and Glenn Wheeler, principals with the Auditor General's office.

They are prepared this morning to discuss and answer our questions on the Auditor General's most recent report that some of us had the pleasure of hearing. It was tabled two weeks ago.

I welcome the Auditor General to this new Parliament. Thank you for appearing before us. We look forward to your opening statement.

8:45 a.m.

Michael Ferguson Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I'm pleased to present my fall 2015 reports, which were recently tabled in the House of Commons. The reports provide the findings of seven audits which we completed in fall 2015.

Government departments and agencies are tasked with implementing programs and services that respond to the needs and issues that matter to Canadians. If intentions are good at the outset, why is it that our audits often show that government programs fall short?

Let's turn first to the creation of the First Nations Health Authority in British Columbia. Our combined study and audit showed that the First Nations Health Authority was the result of a successful collaboration, but that it now needs to make a greater commitment to accountability.

Our studies showed that through sustained collaboration, first nations and federal and provincial partners overcame the long-standing structural impediments to providing services to first nations that our office identified in 2011, including uncertainties around funding and service delivery. We note, for example, that the authority has in place a 10-year funding arrangement, in contrast with past practice where funding was typically allocated on a yearly basis.

However, in the audit portion of our work, we found weaknesses in the authority's accountability and governance framework.

For example, the authority did not consistently apply its policy to investigate allegations of workplace misconduct. The health authority will need to address these weaknesses to support the successful delivery of health services to first nations in British Columbia.

Turning now to the Labrador Inuit Land Claims Agreement, we found that the federal government had made progress in implementing some of its obligations under the agreement. For example, Parks Canada had managed the Torngat Mountains National Park to provide employment and business opportunities to Labrador Inuit.

However, we found that, as a result of long-standing disagreement over the interpretation of obligations under the agreement, challenges remained in some areas, such as fishing and housing.

For example, Fisheries and Oceans Canada and the Nunatsiavut government disagree over the share of the northern shrimp fishery that the Nunatsiavut government is entitled to receive under the agreement.

Furthermore, the lack of a federal program for Inuit housing has limited the Nunatsiavut government's ability to fulfill its housing responsibilities.

The failure to resolve differences puts a strain on the relationship between the federal government and the Nunatsiavut government, yet the dispute resolution mechanism contained in the land claims agreement has not been used to help resolve these issues.

The results of this audit should be considered by the new deputy minister's oversight committee on modern treaty implementation announced in summer 2015.

Looking now to our audit of military housing, we see challenges that are not uncommon when auditing how government programs are planned and executed.

The Department of National Defence is spending millions on military housing without having clearly defined its needs. We found that the department had not determined who among members of the armed forces should be receiving housing, what form this housing should take, and where it should be located.

We also found that the Canadian Forces housing agency, which manages military housing for National Defence, is working under constraints that limit its ability to cost-effectively use funds to meet the current and future needs of Canadian Armed Forces members. For example, in 2015, the agency received $6 million in capital funding from National Defence, with only two months to spend it.

In our audit of the Canada Border Services Agency's export control activities, we found weaknesses in the information, practices and authorities the agency applies to assess export risks, assign its resources, and act on its priorities. As a result, the agency has missed opportunities to stop some goods that did not comply with Canada's export control laws from leaving the country.

For example, the Canada Border Services Agency relied on export declarations to identify and examine high-risk shipments, but was unable to review all the declarations it received. Even when the agency flagged shipments as high-risk, it did not examine about one in five.

We also noted some systematic gaps in coverage. For example, as a result of staffing challenges, the agency did not conduct any examinations of parcels leaving Canada at one large processing centre.

Our next audit focused on gender-based analysis, an area that we also examined in 2009. In our 2015 audit, we observed that gender-based analysis was still not fully deployed across the federal government 20 years after the government committed to applying this type of analysis to its policy decisions.

While we found that Status of Women Canada, the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat, and the Privy Council Office have made progress in supporting the application of gender-based analysis in the federal government, we also found that the analysis conducted by departments and agencies was not always complete, nor was it of consistent quality.

This means that gender considerations, including obstacles to the full participation of diverse groups of men and women, are not always considered in government decisions. This is similar to what we found in 2009.

Turning to our audit of the Canada pension plan disability program, we observed that the backlog of Canada pension plan disability appeals is higher than it was before the creation of the Social Security Tribunal of Canada, which was created to increase the speed and efficiency of the appeals process.

In 2014-15, as the backlog issues grew worse with the addition of new appeals, the average time it took to get a decision on an appeal exceeded 800 days. That's more than twice the average time required three years prior. Close to three years after its creation, the tribunal continued to struggle with providing timely decisions for appellants.

To alleviate the backlog, Employment and Social Development Canada further reviewed the files of some appellants who were waiting for a decision from the tribunal, and determined that about a third of them were in fact eligible for benefits. This means that eligible applicants could have been approved sooner.

We found that Employment and Social Development Canada met its service standards for assessing initial applications and for reconsiderations. However, from the applicants' point of view, we found that the process is long and complex. Applicants must complete many forms and this can take several months.

As part of our fall 2015 audits, we also looked at Shared Services Canada's progress to date in transforming the federal government's information technology services. The transformation of government IT services began in 2013 and it's expected to be completed in 2020.

In our view, Shared Services Canada did not put in place fundamentals to achieve effective collaboration with its partners.

The department did not set clear and concrete expectations of what departments would receive in terms of ongoing service, support, and information. As a result of these and other weaknesses noted in our audit, Shared Services Canada does not know, at this time, whether it is meeting its transformation targets. It is also unable to accurately demonstrate cost savings achieved through the transformation of government IT services.

As this audit is a mid-transition review of the department's progress in implementing key elements of the government's IT transformation, our recommendations provide concrete opportunities to look at what has been done so far and to identify needed adjustments.

You will notice that we are now including copies of the full special examination reports recently issued to crown corporations in lieu of the summary reports that we previously offered. This is to provide you with more complete information on the strengths of audited crown corporations or on the areas they need to improve.

In 2015, our office completed special examinations of the Canadian Tourism Commission and the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority. We are satisfied that the systems and practices we examined were maintained by both organizations in a manner that provided them with reasonable assurance that their resources and activities were managed economically, efficiently, and effectively.

As I indicated at the beginning of my statement, these audits show that the quality of government programs is inconsistent, with some results falling short of underlying intentions and others showing promise.

At the promising end of the scale we have the creation of the First Nations Health Authority in British Columbia, where a different approach and existing information were used to come up with a new way of addressing long-standing impediments. As other governments and first nations from across the country consider how to improve programs and services to Canada's first nations, we note that taking stock of what has worked and why it has worked may be an important place to start.

And at the other end of the spectrum, examples include the gender-based analysis initiative, which is still not fully implemented across the federal government 20 years after it was launched, and the creation of the Social Security Tribunal, where an ill-planned transition and unclear expectations caused delays in appeal cases to increase rather than decrease.

These audits suggest that government departments do not always pay enough attention to continuous improvement and learning, to considering what has worked and what has not, and to using that knowledge to lay the groundwork for better programs and services for Canadians.

In other words, departments may be missing opportunities to work at improving the quality of their programs and services.

Mr. Chair, that concludes my opening statement.

We will be happy to answer any questions you may have.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Mr. Ferguson.

We'll move into the first round of questioning, which is a seven-minute round. We'll go to the Liberal Party, and to Ms Mendès.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC

Good morning, Mr. Ferguson. I'd like to thank all the officials here today for joining us.

I'd like to know whether, on the whole, the program weaknesses you identified were due mainly to a lack of resources or to the improper allocation of resources. If that wasn't the case, did they generally stem from a lack of guidelines around the changes or improvements being sought in the various departments?

9 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

In a few of our audits, we flagged issues that were attributable to resources. The audit on export control at the border, in particular, comes to mind. We found that few resources were allocated to that process.

Generally, our audits examine the manner in which departments carry out their work. And resourcing represents a constraint.

We consider resources essentially to be something that the departments have to work within, a constraint if you want, and then we look to see if, given that you have a certain level of resources to work within, how you have gone about doing that. But from time to time we indicate that perhaps level of resourcing could have had an impact, and I think the audit of controlling exports is one example of that.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC

That was an obvious one for me, yes too, on reading your report, but it appears to me that Shared Services Canada is another one, where perhaps there's a lack of competent or specialized resources to help manage this transformation. It is a major transformation.

9 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

I think probably, on the question of Shared Services Canada, they identified the resources that were available and brought those resources together. But they didn't really identify the baseline costs of all those different services they were trying to provide, and therefore, they were having trouble tracking the savings that were there.

Shared Services Canada is obviously a bit of a unique situation because it was bringing together services for 43 organizations and 485 data centres—a lot of things—and they didn't have all of the information to really understand the baseline costs of everything they were taking on. In that type of case, there would always be a bit of a tug of war around resources, I guess, as the organization tries to identify exactly what it is going to cost to provide some of these. They would have to make sure that they paid very much attention to resources. But it wouldn't really be possible to say that they didn't have enough up front; it was just more a matter that they didn't really define what it was they were going to provide to the different organizations, and the baseline costs of providing those services.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC

—and how to use those resources in the transformation.

9 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

Once they bring all of those resources together—and they're trying to bring 485 data centres together and 23,000 servers together—then yes, they need to have all of that planning that helps them identify, as they make changes to certain aspects of the services, what that does to their resources, how they reallocate resources, and those sorts of things.

It's very much a transformation exercise, which will mean that, over time, there will be changes in what they need those initial resources to do.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC

Thank you so much for being here.

For those of us who are new to this committee, could you please give us some insight into the auditing process? How does it start? Is it something that tweaks your interest, or does somebody send you an email? Just talk to us about the process.

9 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

What we look for, I guess, is risks in programs. We do what we call a strategic audit planning process. If you want the inventory of programs that the government provides, we will sit down with the individual departments and talk about the different types of risks that they face, things that could get in the way of their delivering on their mandate. Then we will also look at what types of controls they put in place, perhaps, to mitigate some of those risks. On the basis of all of that information, we will choose things to look at.

Sometimes we also get information that comes from other sources, whether it be an individual, a member of Parliament, or sometimes a committee like this that will ask us to do an audit of something. We will also get that type of information. We will consider those types of things, but we don't go running off after every letter that people send us. We would look at it and ask if it is something we've already identified as a problem and put it through that whole process again of whether we think there is a risk to the program.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC

Mr. Ferguson, when you talk about a risk, are you talking about a risk of going over budget, or a risk of not delivering services?

9:05 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

I think a couple of significant risks are what I would call mandate risks, the department not being able to deliver what it intended to deliver in that program.

There might be things that are just reputation risks. It's important to deliver certain programs well, because if those programs are not produced well, it will reflect on the whole group delivering the service, the whole department, the whole government, those types of things. Reputation risk would be something else.

Certainly being able to work within resources would be another consideration.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much.

We'll now move to the opposition side.

Go ahead, Monsieur Godin.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I, too, would like to thank Mr. Ferguson, the Auditor General, as well as the members of his team who are with us today.

I'm going to continue along the same lines as my colleague, Ms. Shanahan.

Mr. Ferguson, in describing the process, you said that you sit down with department officials when choosing the audits your office performs.

What basis do you use when selecting files for audit? Do established priorities or criteria determine whether you examine one particular area over another?

9:05 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

We have essentially divided the audit universe into a variety of different topics. For example, we have first nations issues as a topic. We have national defence as a topic. We have financial management as a topic. We will have divided the government universe of programs into those various types of topics. Then within those topics we will do what I refer to as a strategic audit plan to go in and talk to the department about what those risks are.

We take lots of things into consideration. We try to be careful that we're not doing audits on all the same type of topic, because that would mean that, if we were doing five audits on national defence issues, we'd have five auditing teams in National Defence, and we don't want to overwhelm the departments we're auditing. We take those types of things into consideration.

We put a lot of focus on things that impact Canadians. When we're trying to look at things we want to choose, we try to put a lot of emphasis on things that impact Canadians, because we feel those services need to be delivered well, because they are things people are relying on and depending on.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

As far as the process is concerned, if I understand correctly, you identify major topics and, from there, you make choices in deciding on a specific audit. You mentioned national defence and aboriginals. What's at the top of your list? Is my question clear?

9:05 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

I'll start, and then I will ask Ms. Cheng to provide more detail.

Again I think that fundamentally what we're doing is we're asking what are those risks, right? When we're looking at a program, we're trying to see what could go wrong in that area, what could cause the department not to deliver those programs or not to deliver them well.

Ms. Cheng has been involved in this at a more detailed level than I, so I'll ask her to provide you a bit more detail.

9:05 a.m.

Nancy Cheng Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

At the core we like to be able to provide you with information to help you discharge your responsibility to hold the government to account. When you look at that, the question becomes: what are some of the programs that are of significance and relevance to Canadians and to Parliament? That is the underlying premise that we would start with.

We've identified approximately 16 or 17 subject areas that we think are of importance. We talked about a few of them. Public safety would be one of them, for example. That's currently a subject that is of interest to a lot of people. Defence is usually an area: military spending is big dollars; it involves our sovereignty and the like. The aboriginal file and the north are also subject areas. We also talked a little bit about government management and government processes, so financial management and control is of importance. Why did we do a Shared Services Canada audit? IT is such a really critical element to supporting any form of operation that there is a need to have a look-see to see if there are problems there.

What we try to do is to also see how we can add value to the process. If it's an area that's been well studied, committees have been very thorough through that, the government community itself, through its own audit function, has studied extensively, and lots of evaluation has been done, then we look at that and we propose a slate to the Auditor General. We say that it's well covered. The Auditor General was trying to explain the concept of residual risk. Having done all of this, what's left? Is there something that we can look at and can we add some value to the subject? That's how we go about choosing it.

Once a year we review our list and we see out of those subject areas which ones are perhaps more actual in terms of issues that people are concerned with. The Auditor General also identifies services to Canadians. Not only do we look at what government does—government does what it does; it has a program and it goes about implementing it—but we look at it from the recipient point of view. Do we see that there are issues that people seem to be more concerned with? Then maybe we want to put an audit lens on it to see if there's any useful information we can bring to Parliament through our reports.

We also attempt to offer advice to you, and that takes the form of recommendations to government. As you know, our recommendations are made to departments and agencies, but really, they do not carry any authority. They have to be studied by a committee, and in turn you write a report and you provide a recommendation, which then compels the government to respond and say if it is going to do something about it. Again, we try to add value that way to identify areas where improvements can be made so that government can use that as a way to move forward.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Very quickly, Mr. Godin. You have about 30 seconds.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

I'll just make a closing comment before thanking you.

Mr. Ferguson, in your report, it's interesting to see that you've noted some positive elements and some areas for improvement. I think we all need to work together in order to improve the effectiveness and efficiency of our federal bureaucracy.

Thank you for appearing before us this morning.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Godin.

We'll now move to Mr. Christopherson, for seven minutes, please.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Very good. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Ferguson, and your staff, for being here.

Chair, this is not exactly the configuration that I'd prefer. I kind of like the way it was the last four years, but I have to say there's a silver lining. I can't tell you how many times I sat in that chair, and you're going to find this same frustration: you'll want to get into the fray and you'll want to start going, and you can't; you have to be nice and be the referee. All that's gone. You can worry about that now.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Let me just say that some of us liked the way it was for the last four years.

9:10 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!