Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 17th, 2016

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you. Yes. I guess I'm replacing Mr. Christopherson today.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Again, seeing that there is a crying need, and they told us they had to inform interested parties that the tribunal could not confirm hearing dates due to the lack of available judges, and you're telling me you're not sure who names the judges. Well, you know who does—

[Janine Sherman]

No.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

—but you can't tell us if it was done or not.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lefebvre. I don't want to chance your getting upset with me, but your time is up now.

We'll now move to Mr. McColeman, and perhaps we can come back to an answer there a little later.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you all for being here today to let us drill down into your findings.

Auditor General, as you presented and we listened to your comments, and I've underlined and highlighted a few of them, I would consider it quite damning if this were my organization you were bringing this report to. Do you view it in that fashion?

[Michael Ferguson]

When we did this audit, and again we had done a similar audit in 2009 when we found a number of problems, we felt that the problems with the appointments were affecting service to Canadians. When we came back and looked at this again, we put that specific lens on it, looking at some of the tribunals where they make important decisions, whether it's on refugee files or the competition or the specific claims. The ones that we looked at were focusing on organizations that make important decisions for Canadians on questions that Canadians need resolved.

At the time we noticed an improvement in process. More guidance was provided by the Privy Council Office. More notifications were issued by the Privy Council Office. I think fundamentally what we're looking for in this whole area is it's important to make sure that these positions are filled because of the decisions that have to be made. For us, the final result on this, and we made recommendations, is going to be less about process and what changes have been made to process, and much more about if there are fewer vacancies, are vacancies being filled faster.

I think fundamentally, yes, we were disappointed that we found that the results were very similar to what we had found in 2009. What we're looking for going forward are indications that there are fewer vacancies, and vacancies are being filled faster.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Anecdotally, I do have some experience on a couple of these administrative boards, just through individuals who have applied. It totally verifies what you're saying, which is there's seemingly some kind of a barrier in the selection process, or perhaps a lack of qualified individuals who put their names forward for these positions. Then the operation of some of these organizations becomes absolutely dysfunctional. It leads to things like untimely Parole Board hearings, and Parole Board hearings that sometimes don't even happen, and other types of things that can greatly affect Canadians.

Madam Sherman, you've watched this. You've been at the heart of it. Can you share with us specifics of what these barriers might have been?

[Janine Sherman]

I think there are a number of things to first note. We do spend a lot of effort in terms of providing information to ministers and to departments about vacancies so that they can be effectively managed. This means we will look at vacancy reports with some forward dating so that departments are aware and can prepare in terms of future vacancies. I cannot speak to the specific situation in one or more of the administrative tribunals over time. There are often posted vacancies. We usually have very good uptake in terms of candidacies. There may be regional or location differences potentially. Sometimes there are specific locations that need to be filled and there may not be candidates there.

I'm not saying that is the case in the Parole Board, but it is one thing that might be a factor. We do work very assiduously to make sure that.... This is something that I think we have learned in terms of the Auditor General's report, that it does require a lot of information being available. The more attention we pay to future vacancies and the more attention we pay to timely processes, then we can avoid those situations where there are vacancies.

One other point I would note is that sometimes there are vacancies listed on our website—they may show up there—that are potential positions on particular tribunals or organizations, and the organization itself may feel that those are not necessary to fill at that point in time given caseload demands or whatever their operational requirements are. There may sometimes be cases like that.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I don't know whether you can comment on this. If I'm overstepping a line here, Chair, obviously I would like to be told.

Does this bog down when it gets to the political level, the political process, the minister's office, and their desires in terms of what they want to see happen and what it is that you're providing them?

[Janine Sherman]

Mr. Chair, I don't think I'm in a position to speak to the political process. My job in terms of senior personnel and the GIC appointments process is really doing, as I mentioned, the operational support and some of the advice. There may be reasons or considerations on the political side, but I'm not really party to that nor can I speak to it.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

What happens on these administrative boards? I can think of one—and I will not mention it—that I'm aware of where they don't even have quorum to make decisions. What happens in those situations? Does someone ring an alarm bell within your organization to say that you have to get this complete dysfunction fixed soon, quickly, and there's a hurry-up process?

[Janine Sherman]

That's a very important point. That is part of the information that we seek to share and provide with departments. Departments and ministers' offices are also responsible for managing, as I said, the appointments in a minister's portfolio.

Yes, we do. That is part of how we would triage or prioritize selection processes in terms of making sure they get launched in a timely way.

There may be a situation where a member resigns or sometimes there may be a death and if an organization is very close to quorum, if that one or two vacancies makes a difference in being able to meet quorum, those are situations that are raised in terms of an alert being given. There can be temporary measures to make sure quorum is maintained while a selection process may in fact already be under way or gets launched.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Ms. Sherman.

We'll now move to Mr. Weir.

Welcome to our committee.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thanks very much for having me at the public accounts committee. I was pleased that Mr. Lefebvre was so animated in his comments, because I'm not sure I'll be able to live up to Mr. Christopherson's usual standard in that regard.

My first question is for the Auditor General.

I wonder, in terms of the appointment process for administrative tribunals, whether things have become better or worse wince 2009.

[Michael Ferguson]

Again, in the course of the report, we identified that there had been some changes. More guidance was provided to the departments, and more information sessions were provided, information about upcoming vacancies. Certainly some of the things the Privy Council Office had said they were going to do in response to our 2009 audit were done.

In terms of the four tribunals we looked at, not every one of those appointments was handled through the Privy Council Office. Our concern, however, was that we were still seeing delays and impacts. I think we talked specifically about the Immigration and Refugee Board where the delays had gotten worse and moved from 10 months to 18 months. Again, I know the Privy Council Office isn't involved in all of those.

One of those situations that's concerning in the audits we produce is that sometimes there can be improvements in process without having improvements in results. I think what's really important to focus on in this whole file is not just the process—and yes, making more improvements to the process will hopefully get us there—but also on how many vacancies are filled, how quickly they are filled, what the results are, and if these organizations can operate with the number of members they need to make the decisions they have to make.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Would it be fair to say that overall there has been an improvement in the process but not necessarily in the results?

[Michael Ferguson]

Again, it wasn't a direct one-to-one comparison of the organizations we looked at in 2009 to the organizations we looked at in this most recent audit. Again, I can certainly say things were done to the process that made improvements, particularly in providing information to departments about upcoming vacancies. Overall we were disappointed with the extent of the vacancies that still existed and the impact they were having on some very important decisions.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you.

Ms. Sherman, about the new website for appointments, I wonder if this is a well-promoted website, that job seekers and prospective applicants would know to make a submission on.

[Janine Sherman]

Yes, I think it is. Certainly if you google appointments you'll land there. More importantly, it is also accessible through the canada.ca web page, where all government traffic is directed, so I think it is fairly visible and available. We certainly do work to make sure it stays that way.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Does it happen that the government decides it wants to appoint someone, and then encourages them to submit through the website, or does someone have to put in their submission through the website on their own initiative to be considered in the first place?

[Janine Sherman]

Mr. Chair, we obviously would not see the impetus for that application. We see the individual's application through the website. Whether or not they've been encouraged to apply, it always comes from the individual. They create a user profile, so we know it is that person who is applying.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

You mentioned merit and diversity as objectives of the new process. Do you see a trade-off between those goals?

[Janine Sherman]

No, I think that merit is the baseline. Open, transparent, and merit are the fundamental elements of how the selection process is structured. Diversity is equally important, but it follows on merit. Merit is always the baseline for measuring an applicant's qualifications. The diversity information is helpful in potentially making choices. Those are elements that.... Each one of the qualified candidates would meet the merit criteria.