Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 8th, 2017

[Brian Pagan]

I think it's fair to say that through the process of consultation, identifying a need, the departments involved had a view of what needed to be done and what they wanted to do. Of course, the challenge is always in implementing and dealing with different organizational cultures, different governance structures—

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

The point is that even after five years we are still talking about the challenges.

[Brian Pagan]

As my colleague from the Auditor General quite helpfully pointed out, one thing we are faced with is the realities of our system of government, the Westminster system, where monies are allocated vertically, if you will, to departments, and ministers are accountable to Parliament for the spending of those funds. They have their own teams and their own staff, and they have to do contracting—

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

I'm sorry; I have to go ahead. I have a couple more questions.

In our last meeting, the deputy minister of public safety mentioned that legislation has been an issue in implementing some of the initiatives. I know that one is related to the entry-exit. That was one initiative where, I think, $70 million could not be used for implementing the initiative because the legislation was not passed. Is there any other legislation that is holding it up?

[David McGovern]

That's a very good question.

[Brian Pagan]

Yes.

[David McGovern]

Enabling legislation is required for pre-clearance, and it's required for entry-exit.

Think back and take a look at the calendar. The election was called in June, followed by July, August, September, and October. The government came back in November, a new government. We have to brief the government on the initiative, the agreements in principle. They went forward, they met with President Obama in March at their summit, and they reaffirmed their commitment to entry-exit and pre-clearance. During April, May, and June, legislation was introduced and now you guys have the two pieces of legislation at second reading.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

Other than that one piece of legislation, are there any other things pending?

[David McGovern]

Those are the only two that I am aware of as outstanding pieces of legislation.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

Yes, okay.

[The Vice-Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès), Liberal, Alexandra Mendes]

Thank you, Mr. McGovern.

I have Mr. Christopherson, but before I offer the floor to Mr. Christopherson, I have a question to you, Mr. Pagan.

I would like to take advantage of the prerogative that comes with being in this chair to ask you to submit to us—in writing, if you prefer—the explanation you were giving us. You were talking about the challenge of establishing the accountability of the departments in a horizontal or pan-governmental program, whereas in our current parliamentary system, minister accountability is established very vertically. You could give us this explanation in writing, so that we don't interfere with my colleagues' time. That would be greatly appreciated.

Mr. Christopherson, the floor is yours for three minutes.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Very good. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Pagan, to come back again, you have a deputy, right? You're like an ADM? You're not the deputy of Treasury—

[Brian Pagan]

That's right.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

—or are you?

[Brian Pagan]

No, I'm the assistant secretary of expenditure management.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Yes, so apologies to you for taking the hits that the accounting officer is supposed to take. That's why we insist on having deputies here, but you're doing a good job of filling in.

I want to come back to a couple of things. First of all, on page 23 of the Auditor General's report, he makes a comment about the shiprider initiative, and I just want to point out and get back to the issue and the gaps in terms of the reporting.

On the previous year's report there is the whole issue of pilot projects that were going to start. It says here, “The previous year’s report (2013–14) noted that the pilots had been postponed until legal and operational issues were resolved.” In the current year, “the report did not mention that the pilot projects for expanding operations on land had not been started and that there were no plans to pursue them.”

So it looks like a classic Yes Minister. In the first instance they say, “Well, we have legal and operational issues so we have to get these legal and operational issues resolved”. Then in the follow-up year to that, there is nothing. Sometimes it worries us that we get into borderline deliberate misleading. It starts to get into that area.

Here is a specific question for you, though. Again, in the Auditor General's report at paragraph 1.86 it states:

In the 2012-13 fiscal year, the Secretariat was developing another guide on the management and reporting of horizontal initiatives, which it published in 2014. In our opinion, this guide did not provide enough clarity to the lead reporting department to ensure that reporting was complete and accurate, nor did it provide enough information to help departments and agencies report on progress and develop a costing framework for horizontal initiatives.

That's not that long ago. What I'd like to know is, how did you get something so important so wrong?

[Brian Pagan]

There are three points, I suppose. The first is that it's an honour to be here, and we take our responsibilities with respect to parliamentary committees very seriously. As I mentioned earlier, the Auditor General has done a number of audits in this area, and those have been very constructive, very helpful to us in surfacing and addressing some of the very real challenges that we face with inherently complex initiatives when we're working across government to achieve outcomes. This most recent report is simply a continuation of that good working relationship with the Auditor General. That's point number one.

Regarding your reference to a 2013 report, anything with respect to the actual implementation of the initiative is best directed to the department. I can't speak to pilot projects, etc. What I do own, and what I will be glad to speak to, is the guide that we promulgated in 2014 that sets out the responsibilities as we saw them with respect to the lead department and partner departments. That guide identified principles around reporting.

Just as an example—

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Before you brag, just remember it got a failing mark in the Auditor General's report.

[Brian Pagan]

I believe what the Auditor General said was that the guidance could be clarified. I don't know that it was a failing grade. I don't think they grade us. They simply identify—

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Nor did it provide enough information to help departments. There are different degrees of passing, but go ahead, sir.

[Brian Pagan]

Right. The guide, as it exists now, has essentially two parts. It's a principle-based approach with respect to reporting to Parliament, so we're talking about transparent reporting, clear accountabilities, and identifying horizontal initiatives separate from existing initiatives in departments.

We believe we have made some good progress in that respect through initiatives and through tools such as our horizontal initiatives database. This is on the TBS website. It's accessible to parliamentarians and the public. It identifies the 29 initiatives currently identified as horizontal in the Government of Canada. It's $3 billion, and from that initiative you can go either by department or by fiscal year, and you can find out how these entities are involved in a horizontal management.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Why won't it take—

[The Vice-Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès), Liberal, Alexandra Mendes]

I'm sorry, Mr. Christopherson. You're at five minutes. You can go back. There is time. We have 20 minutes left.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Really? That's good to hear. Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès), Liberal, Alexandra Mendes]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Pagan, I have just a question of clarification so that our analysts will be able to do their work. Could I ask you to provide us with the statement that I asked for, on the complexity of managing the Westminister system accountability issues, in two weeks' time if at all possible? Would that be possible?