Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 15th, 2017

[Don Head]

Yes, we were planning on implementing it, but the Auditor General pointed out to us that we probably should have implemented it earlier or needed to move on it more quickly, and we've accepted that recommendation.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

He's helpful like that.

[Don Head]

Very much so.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Switching gears slightly, you comment on the prevalence of gang membership in the aboriginal prisoner population. Can you compare that to the prevalence in other ethnocultural subpopulations?

[Don Head]

One of the challenges we have, particularly in the Prairies region of Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba, is the prevalence of aboriginal gangs. One of the challenges we have is the placement of certain individuals into certain penitentiaries to be able to follow their rehabilitation plan. With the myriad of different gangs there and their conflicts, we cannot have the Native Syndicate in with this gang or that gang, so we're very careful about how we place individuals. Sometimes that creates some problems in integrating individuals on ranges or integrating individuals in an institution overall. The aboriginal gangs in the Prairie region are the fastest-growing group of gangs that we have to face.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

That means there's a higher prevalence of them. Is it not just in the Prairies?

[Don Head]

It's primarily in the Prairies, and I think it's about 18% of the aboriginal offenders, compared to 8% of the general population. It's just a little over double, which is problematic for us.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Do you have any reason for the disparity, any indications of why?

[Don Head]

Part of it stems from things that have developed earlier in these individuals' encounters with the criminal justice system. Particularly going through youth centres and provincial systems, they become associated with gangs, and that obviously carries over.

This is one of the things that, although the Auditor General didn't point it out to us, is really part of what's behind some of the issues we've been tackling. The fact that if we do not, in my words, surround an indigenous person right at the beginning when he comes into one of our correctional centres and start to get him engaged in their correctional planning and programs, if we leave any time before we're engaging them directly, the gangs will engage them and fill the void that individuals are looking for. They're looking for somebody to help them, to guide them, etc.

[The Vice-Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès), Liberal, Alexandra Mendes]

Thank you. Sorry, but you're a little over time.

Mr. Christopherson, you have seven minutes.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you Madam Chair, and thank you, guests, for being here today. We appreciate it.

As full disclosure, I do have some sense of how difficult your job is, Mr. Head. My first cabinet appointment, a very long time ago, was in corrections in Ontario, so I do understand the challenges. That said, this is still a very troubling report.

I'd like to begin by reading a couple of quotes, and it will only take me a moment. This comes out of the decision yesterday of the Superior Court of Justice in Ontario, Brown v. Attorney General of Canada. It is with regard to the Sixties Scoop class action. It may have already come across your desk, I'm sure.

That judgment says, in part, and I quote the words of the judge:

In my view, under the first stage of the analysis, a prima facie duty of care is established. It is beyond dispute that there is a special and long-standing historical and constitutional relationship between Canada and aboriginal peoples that has evolved into a unique and important fiduciary relationship.

He further states:

And there can be no doubt that the aboriginal peoples’ concern to protect and preserve their aboriginal identity was and remains an interest of the highest importance. As the Divisional Court put it: “It is difficult to see a specific interest that could be of more importance to aboriginal peoples than each person’s connection to their aboriginal heritage.”

Now, as if that kind of legal framework wouldn't be enough, the legislation that you work under, the Corrections and Conditional Release Act, the law that governs your work, requires that the Correctional Service of Canada provide

correctional interventions that respond to Indigenous offenders' unique set of needs to support their successful reintegration.

My first question regards the Auditor General's report, page 13, paragraph 3.55, which reads:

We found that access to correctional interventions varied considerably across institutions and regions. We also found that Correctional Service Canada had not examined whether it provided enough access to culturally specific correctional interventions to meet the needs of the Indigenous offender population.

Given the legal framework, the legal requirement that you have, how can we have an Auditor General report in front of us that says that your department didn't even examine whether you were providing enough culturally specific interventions?

I'd like your comments, please.

[Don Head]

Thanks for the question, and thanks for your observation.

There is no question that we did examine that. Did we provide enough? The answer is no, we did not. There are several reasons we could probably go into. One, of course, is the increased number of individuals coming into the system and the capacity to keep up with that. There were challenges around individuals who, to some extent, particularly with some of the youthful indigenous offenders that came into the system, were very much influenced by gangs to not participate in programs. There are all kinds of different factors in play.

Did we have programs and interventions in place? Yes, we did. Did we have enough? The answer is obviously not. Are we trying to close that gap? The answer is yes, and we're trying to do it within the budget constraints we have.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Paragraph 3.61 of the report states, “We found that CSC did not ensure that its culturally specific correctional programs operated with the required level of Elder involvement...”. In your bring-and-brag piece in your opening remarks, the top one on the list of what you do is about elders, yet we're finding here that you're not engaging with them.

I'm no expert, but it seems to me that this would be a place of important focus, because they're the interface between your system and the cultural environment that you're dealing in.

Why is there a failing grade on working with elders?

[Don Head]

What I can talk about there is our engagement with elders. We have about 140 elders who are working in the institutions, working with indigenous offenders across the country. Some offenders access the services; others do not.

One of the challenges we have is keeping elders, partly because they are elderly.

We have several forums where we discuss this through the National Aboriginal Advisory Committee and the National Elders Working Group, to talk about how we can continually recruit elders and find elders in the community that—

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Excuse me; this will happen. A few of us will cut you off just because we're running short of time. I apologize for being rude.

[Don Head]

No problem.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I want to stay focused on my question.

I hear what you're saying. You're talking about the load, but I'm talking about the detail of what you did and didn't do. Again, in paragraph 3.62, in the same report, it states:

In one third of the offender files we examined, we found that Elder reviews had not been documented.

It's a simple matter, but without the documentation, you could argue that it didn't happen in terms of the next person dealing with it.

In the same paragraph it also states:

We also found that Aboriginal liaison officers had not received guidance or training on how to evaluate the impact of Elder reviews and interventions on an offender's progress toward successful reintegration.

Please stop telling me how wonderful it is and tell me how you're going to correct the findings that are in this report, because this is telling me that you're not doing that great a job with the elders, or at least there is lots of room to do it better.

[Don Head]

If you go back to what you described as my “bring-and-brag” report, we recognize very clearly that there are gaps. We're working to encourage more elders to come into the system. We're working to ensure that our aboriginal liaison officers...in our management action plan you'll see our plan to train the ALOs and the ACDOs to do that.

One of the challenges we had with the elders is that although they're very good at engaging offenders, documenting what they did was a challenge. We had to assign staff members to work with the elders to capture what they were doing.

There is no question.... I'm not saying that we're perfect—far from it, and please don't interpret anything I say—

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

You're a long way from perfect, sir.

[Don Head]

Please don't interpret anything I'm saying to mean that we are.

[The Vice-Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès), Liberal, Alexandra Mendes]

Thank you very much, Mr. Head.

Monsieur Lefebvre is next.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Head, when I first saw the report, I was shocked and almost embarrassed to go through it. What is most embarrassing and a bit shocking or disturbing is that if it hadn't been for the Auditor General's report, we'd still be dealing with the same stats.

Is there someone within CSC who just deals with indigenous incarceration and rehabilitation and provides services to them? Is there a group that is specifically dedicated to this?

[Don Head]

The senior deputy commissioner, Anne Kelly, is responsible for aboriginal initiatives in—

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

So there is.

[Don Head]

—CSC, yes.