Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 31st, 2017

[Louise Levonian]

We do have performance measurements.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's the question. I read the exact quote and you're suggesting that's not correct, so something's not right here.

Mr. Ferguson, somebody, help me understand. We have two different points of view.

Come on, time is going. Let's go.

[Michael Ferguson]

I'll ask Mr. Wheeler to address the finding then.

[Glenn Wheeler, Principal, Office of the Auditor General]

Mr. Chair, what we found in the audit report is that although there was a requirement for a performance measurement strategy to be in place, there was not one, and such a strategy would indicate indicators about how to measure the success of the program and the data that would be used to populate those indicators.

The deputy minister is making reference to some data that appears in the DPR that, in and of itself, doesn't provide enough information to indicate whether the program is successful or not. An example of that would be—and we don't refer to it specifically in the report but it's public information—the amount of time it takes to do an LMIA request for a high-skilled worker.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Deputy?

[Louise Levonian]

What I would say is that there has been information available. We're always improving that information, so certain information was available and Paul can talk about that if you wish. As of January 2017, there has been a more comprehensive performance measurement plan put in place.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Even though you maintain you had one, it wasn't good enough. Let's move along.

I have a bit of a problem reconciling the report and what the deputy has said here today vis-à-vis the risk and benefit and the department answered.... Sorry, I'll back up. The Auditor General criticized the fact that there were certainly insufficient on-site inspections and any that were happening were not surprise visits. They were told ahead of time that you were coming.

In the department's response to the Auditor General, on page 17 it says, “The Department has also increased the number of on-site inspections that it conducts at employers’ premises to enhance the protection of vulnerable temporary foreign workers. Finally, the Department will undertake an assessment of the risks and benefits by April 2018 of conducting unannounced on-site inspections.” Yet today in your remarks, deputy, you said, “Recognizing the important role that unannounced on-site visits could play in protecting foreign workers, we have accelerated our efforts and expect to complete the work on this in the fall.”

How could we be so far away that in your written response to the Auditor General it is going to take until next April for you to decide whether or not, based on a risk and benefit assessment, on-site inspections would be a good idea, and then roll in and say, “Recognizing the important role...”.

There's a disconnect there. Help me.

[Louise Levonian]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

There's no question that on-site inspections are something that's recognized as being beneficial.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Let's stop right there. That's not what you said in the response. You just said now—and I agree with you—that it's obvious that on-site inspections make sense. But in your written response, you said it was going to take until April of next year to do a risk and benefit assessment to decide whether or not conducting unannounced site inspections would be a good idea. Come on. We have a bit of a revision of history going on here.

[Louise Levonian]

I'm happy to answer that question. I was going to do it in stages, but I'll leap to the question you're asking.

Unannounced on-site inspections are not something the department has done in the past, and it is something we want to tread into carefully. We don't want to put employees at risk because those kinds of inspections can result in that. We need to consult with the unions. We need to establish the proper procedures in doing that. There are steps that—

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Nobody is suggesting you shouldn't.

[Louise Levonian]

That takes a bit of time.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I have to tell you. I haven't yet heard one utterance, Deputy, saying, “We screwed up. We failed. We didn't do the job.” You're being very defensive, and it always annoys me when there isn't some recognition. This is a bad audit, Deputy. This is a bad audit. This does not look good on you or the department, and so far, all I'm hearing are defences about how well you're doing. I'd like to start hearing some recognition about how badly you failed and about how you're going to pull up your socks.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Christopherson. We'll have to wait. We'll keep everyone in suspense for that. It will be coming a little later.

We'll now move to Monsieur Massé.

Monsieur Massé, you have seven minutes.

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being here today and for taking part in the committee's work. We welcome your participation.

I know that your respective teams worked very hard to prepare for your appearance in order to be able to answer our questions.

I echo Mr. Lefebvre's comments about the importance of the temporary foreign workers program for regions such as the ones I represent in Eastern Quebec, the Gaspé in particular.

I do not want to engage in politics here and will remain objective in my comments.

Canada's economy has improved significantly. Close to 430,000 jobs were created this past month, reducing unemployment considerably in certain parts of Quebec. The unemployment rate in Quebec City is about 4%. The unemployment rate in my home region of the Gaspé also fell. This is good news for the labour market for Canadians, but it also has negative effects on employers.

Throughout the summer, I travelled around my riding and met with a number of employers. They said there is a labour shortage in the region. I am thinking of restaurant owners who had to close their restaurants at noon, something that had not happened in 52 years in some cases. They told me about the difficulty recruiting qualified workers and said they would like to be able to use the temporary foreign workers program.

The data gathered since 2009 shows that the number of temporary foreign workers approved by your department fell by 32% from 2009 to 2015. These two things might be correlated.

Did the number of foreign workers continue to fall in 2016?

[Louise Levonian]

The decrease has more or less stabilized.

Mr. Thompson, do you have the exact figures?

[Paul Thompson]

The decrease has levelled off for a number of program components. There was an increase in the agriculture sector, where labour needs continue to increase.

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Perfect.

If you have current data, I would like to get it.

[Paul Thompson]

For each program component?

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Yes, if you please.

Thank you.

Mr. Ferguson, in paragraph 5.44 of your report, you recommend that the department establish “a quality assurance framework for the temporary foreign worker program” and that this “framework should ensure that program officers' decisions relating to the application process are consistent with program requirements [...]”.

To what extent does this apply to similar Government of Canada programs?

[Michael Ferguson]

For various programs, it is important to have a system to ensure the quality of decisions. That is one way to ensure that the program requirements are met. That is a normal part of the management of any program.

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Ms. Levonian, I echo what my colleague Mr. Christopherson said. Why does the department not have a national quality assurance framework to evaluate the quality and consistency of the decisions made by program officers?

[Louise Levonian]

I will let Ms. MacLean answer that question.

[Leslie MacLean, Senior Associate Deputy Minister and Chief Operating Officer for Service Canada, Department of Employment and Social Development]

As the Auditor General said, the management and delivery of the temporary foreign workers program need to be improved. To ensure consistency in the decisions made by all program officers, there needs to be a quality assurance framework, as you said.

The pilot projects we have conducted since the spring show that such a framework will be a big help to our officers in making consistent decisions regarding what we call a real offer of a real job, and in ensuring that the conditions are similar to those offered to Canadians for the same kind of work.

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Ms. MacLean.

I would be interested in hearing more about your pilot projects. Can you tell us a bit about them? What have you implemented? What were the specific objectives of those projects?