Public Accounts Committee on May 19th, 2020

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you very much for that.

One of my follow-up questions was very similar to Mr. Sorbara's. Your answer was pleasant to hear, that you will report the good, the bad and the ugly. I think that's very important for your office, to maintain that independence.

Moving forward, I believe Canadians are going to want to see exactly how the COVID-19 pandemic was handled. The exact way the money rolled out is important, I think, having had questions from my constituents about the application process, especially around CEBA. Have you thought about this? Would you audit each program on its own, or would it be a full audit through all departments? Going forward, Canadians are really going to want to see how that money was rolled out and whether it was the most efficient and effective rollout of programs possible.

Have you had an idea or any thoughts around how you will start to audit the COVID-19 program response that the government has had?

[Karen Hogan]

As I mentioned, when we agreed to accept the mandate and take it on, we put together a steering committee. Right now, we are in the process of looking at the universe of absolutely everything that is out there and making sure that we focus our efforts where it will matter the most, where it will generate the most value for this committee and for Canadians. We will be looking at preparedness, at actions during the pandemic and, almost most important, at lessons learned, so that we can adjust if needed should a situation like this occur again for our government and our country.

It's a little early to know where exactly we will go, but we're trying very hard to focus our audits in ways that make them easy for us to package and easy for Canadians and parliamentarians to use. Given that a lot of government now is very horizontal and there is shared responsibility across organizations, I would imagine that this will be taken into consideration as we decide exactly which programs to focus on.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

That's great to hear. It's going to be a massive undertaking.

I think Mr. Green hit on a couple of points. I know you didn't want to put a number on it, but with your extensive background, would you have an idea of how much more...? Would there be a requirement to have more staff? Would there be some requirement to undertake, as you said, a universal look at how the COVID-19 programs were rolled out? Is there a number you'd place on how much extra funding...? Obviously, at the beginning, we never saw the pandemic being as large as it is. Would you have an idea of how much more capacity you would need to undertake the universal audit of the COVID-19 programs?

[Karen Hogan]

Any number I might put out there would honestly be a wild guess. As you mentioned, no one's ever done a pandemic before, and we're all learning as we go. Our current resource constraints will help us focus on some key areas. Obviously, any additional funding we might receive will give us the flexibility to carry out all our other legislatively required work, and then to expand, hopefully.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you.

How much time do I have?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

That was it.

We'll turn it over to Ms. Yip, and I'll also turn the chair back to Mr. Allison.

Ms. Yip, you have five minutes.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Welcome back to the committee, Ms. Hogan, and congratulations on your nomination.

One key area that the late Mr. Ferguson strongly recommended that the government focus on was data collection. Proper data collection is important for government policy and important to see how well our programs are performing. With numerous government supports for COVID-19, data collection is now more important than ever. What is your view regarding data collection and big data analysis? Also, what will be the process for you and your office in collecting the proper data to audit?

[Karen Hogan]

You hit an important topic for any auditor—data. The quality of data matters so much to decision-making for leaders in organizations, as well as for assessment and evaluation by auditors. Obviously, we would love to see a greater focus across the entire government on a good, comprehensive collection of accurate data.

From a big-data standpoint, as I mentioned, the auditing world is evolving so much, and that is exactly one of those areas. The use of data analytics to figure out insightfully where to go to audit and where to focus your efforts is something that we do already, but I would love it, if I were appointed Auditor General, to see us do this more regularly so we could really target the most important areas within an organization.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Canada has not seen a woman in the role of Auditor General in almost a decade. What unique perspective do you think you will bring to this role as a woman?

[Karen Hogan]

I still have to admit that it's a little scary to try to fill the shoes of Sheila Fraser, so I guarantee that you won't get Sheila Fraser, but you will get Karen Hogan, and Karen is someone who is known for telling it like it is. I will be honest and fair, and I will approach every conversation and every discussion with the incredible desire to listen and learn: learn about the business, learn about how you do business, and then focus on improving it, hopefully.

It's obviously a privilege and an honour as a woman to potentially be given such an important role. I hope it will serve as an example to my teenage daughter and to so many women out there that, honestly, female or male, we can all do a great job if we focus on what really matters and stay true to our values.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Will you be applying the principles of the gender-based analysis plus regarding your plans for the administration of the OAG, as well as to any financial or performance audits?

[Karen Hogan]

Within our organization, we always respect hiring policies and practices, and best practices, absolutely. With any audit that we approach, when we establish the criteria that will be used to hold a department against, we will consider the need and how often we might need to look at gender-based initiatives.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

There's been some focus on the importance of diversity, whether it's regarding women, people of colour, or those who are physically challenged, in public service recruitment and retention. Do you have similar plans for the OAG?

[Karen Hogan]

I'm not sure that I know all of the details of what you're talking about, so I don't think I would have an educated response to give you a really valid response on it. I would want to look into that a little more and consider it.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I'm going to share the remainder of my time with Greg Fergus.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Greg, you've got about one minute left for a quick question.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I want to start by congratulating Ms. Hogan. As a Montrealer, I'm pleased to see a fellow Montrealer in such an important position.

Ms. Hogan, I want to echo what Ms. Yip said about how it's important for you to ensure representation among the auditors working in the office.

I'd like to ask you a question about the use of high tech.

Do you plan on using artificial intelligence to audit departments?

[Karen Hogan]

Thank you for your question.

Our organization is already very diverse, but that will certainly be an important aspect of all our future hiring processes.

As for information technologies, we definitely want to delve deeper into artificial intelligence. We use it a little, but there's been a shortage of resources and investment these last few years. Our organization has some shortfalls in that area that we need to focus on.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Mr. Fergus, I want to echo what Mr. Blois was saying about technology. We've had a chance here to see that with rural broadband, as my connection dropped here for a little bit.

Mr. Longfield, thanks for jumping in for me. I'm tethered to my iPhone. I don't want to let the House of Commons know and be upset with the lack of security.

It's too late; they have heard, but I'm back on the call.

We are going to move now to Mr. Blanchette-Joncas, who is going to have a quick question of two and a half minutes.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Hogan, the COVID-19 pandemic has caused a lot of upheaval.

To what extent do you think the current public health crisis will affect the office's operations, particularly with regard to audits that are already under way?

[Karen Hogan]

During this crisis, all of our employees are working remotely. From a technological standpoint, we have enough bandwidth and we haven't run into any problems in that respect.

However, as I was saying, it's hard to interact with organizations that we would like to audit, because the communications need to be protected and the office's policies need to be complied with. I expect that to delay our work. But it's giving everyone a chance to be creative and to come up with new and hopefully more efficient ways of doing things.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Hogan.

Speaking of delays, there's one file that's been dragging on for a long time and that should be considered very important. I'm talking about the Phoenix pay system. There have already been investigations.

Do you think it's crucial to have very strict oversight of all processes involving the system, including procurement, tendering and development, or other oversight that has never been done?

Even our own committee has tried prodding the various departments to give us the facts, but with no success so far.

[Karen Hogan]

As you know, I was involved in auditing the consolidated financial statements of the Government of Canada, and we spent a huge amount of time auditing Phoenix. It's vital for everyone to be paid on time and accurately. The same goes for all the other benefits that the government provides to Canadians.

What I learned during the audit of Phoenix is that the IT programs are incredibly broad in scope, and they're complex. You need independent oversight from start to finish.

If appointed Auditor General, I would like the office to be involved in more of the government's large-scale IT projects from the outset. If that's not possible, the departments need to make sure there's proper oversight and accountability and that decision-makers have complete and accurate information.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you.

We know there have been some major shortfalls—

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Blanchette. That's all the time we have. We may catch you in another round.

We're going to go over to Mr. Green now for two and a half minutes.