Public Accounts Committee on Dec. 1st, 2020

[Atiq Rahman]

Yes, sure.

In 2014, the request for proposals went out. That was not when the contract was actually signed; the contract was finalized in 2016 and was expected to be operational in 2018.

That got delayed to make sure that we had an error-free disbursement of student loans and grants. At the same time, over the last few years a number of changes had been implemented in the Canada student loans program because of the enhancements that the government had announced. That also had some impact on the service providers' capacity to do both at the same time.

Those are the reasons we had to reschedule the transformation initiative slightly.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Can you tell us what this plan is about?

[Atiq Rahman]

I'm sorry, the plan...? Do you mean to give them more information; is that what you're referring to?

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Yes.

[Atiq Rahman]

It is what our colleague from the Financial Consumer Agency of Canada has already touched on: providing more information with respect to financial literacy.

There is already a virtual repayment counsellor that was launched last year, where students can go to look at different repayment options and, depending on their situation at the time, select which option they would like to choose and get back more information on it.

At the same time, we have continued to put more information on individual dashboards on the portal, as well as enable public access to part of the portal with respect to budgeting and expense management and such things.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

It doesn't seem that there are many students accessing this portal. Some stakeholders have recommended mandatory training for students before they sign the loan agreements after they either complete their studies or leave a program.

Do you feel that this would help increase financial literacy?

It's somewhat similar to students in high school—though this may not be financial literacy—being required to do 40 hours of volunteer work and not being able to graduate until they do. Do you feel that this would be beneficial, having mandatory training for students?

[Graham Flack]

Atiq, why don't I start?

We have been in discussion with the provinces around this idea, because were we to have mandatory training, it would require legislative change at the federal and provincial levels.

The U.S. is the jurisdiction we looked at that did put this in place. The academic literature around their program is that it has not resulted in better outcomes. It's an online program that everyone has to take. People figure out what the answers are or look them up online, and it doesn't appear to have a long-term impact.

We are working with the provinces, because they would probably be the front line delivering this, to test viable options for this type of training to determine what would actually work and improve outcomes. I think before recommending to the minister that we move to mandatory training, we would want to be very confident that there was a return on investment from it and that it wasn't just a burden on individuals without any improved results in the outcomes.

That's what we intend to test.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much, Mr. Flack.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

We'll now move to the next round of questioning, which is our six-minute round, starting with Mr. Kent.

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

The question is for the Auditor General.

Ms. Hogan, given the recommendations that you make in your report, if you were to design a system that you would consider more effective both in dealing with loans being made and the re-engagement and repayment of those loans, what would it be?

[Karen Hogan]

That's an excellent question. I'm not sure I'm the best person to find that result. I guess I would want to start, however, with understanding why individuals who are in the repayment assistance program are perhaps unable to make the payments, whether they be reduced or not. Our audit did note that in 2019 about half of the individuals in the repayment assistance program had not made any payments in four years, so perhaps it's the design of the program. Perhaps it's some financial literacy issue. Perhaps it's a combination of other elements.

Before I would attempt to try to tell you how to design a program, I'd really want to understand why the current program has the outcomes it has in order to be well informed.

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Is that the sort of information that you would request from either ESDC or the CRA?

[Karen Hogan]

Well, it's the sort of information I would encourage them to gather and analyze in order to be able to make recommendations for any changes that might be needed to the program.

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

With regard to the recommendation regarding information sharing, were there specifics that you included with that recommendation that you could share with us, or was that a general proposal?

[Karen Hogan]

No, it was a general proposal that stemmed from our finding that there were individuals who had revenue higher than the threshold and were admitted into the repayment assistance program, recognizing that having that historical information is just one piece of information you need and that, together, CRA and ESDC should share the information they need to make the best well-informed decision about who should be admitted and whether or not they should be given reduced payments.

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

In your work across government, looking into programs administered by all departments, what are your recommendations regarding the point made by Mr. Flack as to the frailty, the vulnerability of our data protection in the federal government?

[Karen Hogan]

I'm actually looking to start some work in perhaps a year or so that looks at the protection of information on the cloud. Like any organization, the federal government is subject to people who try to access our data sets, our servers with bad intentions, so I do think it's important that we take the time to ensure that taxpayers' information is protected from external hackers and also follows the rules of the Privacy Act and the Access to Information Act.

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Chair, do I still have a couple of minutes?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Yes, you do, sir. You have two and a half minutes.

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Super, thank you.

For Commissioner Robertson, on the literacy training that you support, I'm wondering what elements of prudence.... I suppose the use of loans is included in that literacy. As the Auditor General pointed out, and as you pointed out, a major student loan is generally the first serious debt that many young people face.

We know, again anecdotally, that some borrow beyond their absolute needs in terms of their education.

[Judith Robertson]

Thank you for that message.

The information that is now included on the portal, more generally by us but also by others, does focus on the prevention side or the "before you commit" side. I think that's what you're getting at. It's important to know what you're getting into and to make an informed decision about whether this is the best way to pay for your education. We actually have a section on paying for your education, in addition to a second on repaying. We're trying to get at both ends, the going in and then the repayment of the loan.

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

With regard to those who are delinquent over a period of years, as mentioned by the Auditor General, again, what advice is offered to those who may think they can simply not repay that loan, one way or another?

[Judith Robertson]

Is that question for me?

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Yes, it is. I'm asking about consequences.