Public Accounts Committee on Dec. 1st, 2020

[Judith Robertson]

I am completely in agreement—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Make a very short answer, Ms. Robertson.

[Judith Robertson]

My short answer is that I think this is a wonderful opportunity to experiment and to try some pilot projects, which we are well-positioned to facilitate.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you so much.

We will now move to Mr. Green for six minutes as our last questioner today.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you. I'll end this session by saying that I'm still very uncomfortable about all the time and energy we have for means testing and putting individual onus on people without really thinking deeply about the systems—the wholly inadequate systems—that are currently in place to provide education for our workforce, which of course, is one of the key cornerstones of our economy.

We've heard students be categorized as consumers, and I would agree that the financialization, the privatization, the increasing capitalization of education tilts them in that direction. We've also heard a lot about financial literacy, but I'll put this question to Ms. Robertson, who I believe is in charge of this.

Given everything that we've heard in the report, Ms. Hogan states that it doesn't cover any assistance to students related to the pandemic; however, the pandemic is a compounding factor that has come into play and that will cause market conditions to worsen, thereby limiting the prospects of young adults.

For young people who are watching and who graduated into one of the worst and most precarious economies prior to COVID, knowing that COVID is going to be a compounding factor, if you were to give financial advice to people looking for secondary education, would you advise them even to pursue it, at this point?

[Judith Robertson]

Our role, of course, is not about providing advice on whether to pursue higher education, although we do have some research showing the benefits over a lifetime of educational achievement.

It's been a very difficult time. We understand completely. We have some more research coming out in our monthly report, which should help guide future policy directions on the specific effects of COVID by specific demographics.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I often agree with my friend, Mr. Blanchette-Joncas, but I heard today the idea that mandatory training, that financial literacy is somehow going to provide answers to people who happen to be living in poverty, who happen to be living in one of the most precarious job and employment environments and who have absolutely no control over the economic outcomes of COVID.

Would you care to comment on that assertion? Will this in any way, shape or form alleviate the compounded pressure of student debt?

[Judith Robertson]

I will say completely that although we are passionate about financial literacy and the importance of it, not just for students, but for people throughout their lives, we also don't fool ourselves that financial literacy is the solution to all problems.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you. I will accept that because, of course, it was a rhetorical device that we use politically.

I'm going to say this to the committee: I'm still challenged by this. I challenge every person over 50 to think about what they paid in tuition, relative to their ability to earn through summer jobs and through immediate employment, relative to the cost of living that they had decades ago, and then compare it in real terms to today's economy.

I feel like this report, despite the many ways in which it's been explored today, still fails to answer the fundamental questions that young people are facing in this economy based on education.

Now I want to get to the end of the cycle of debt recovery, and I want to ask the question, through you, Madam Chair, and I put this in terms of the way people used to use bankruptcy to discharge their debt. What happens now after seven years when it's been written off, in as easy a way as possible to explain it?

This isn't to Ms. Robertson. This is to ESDC or whoever would be responsible for that.

[Graham Flack]

Atiq.

[Atiq Rahman]

Once the money is written off, the loan is not forgiven. The debt still survives.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

So here's the question, an economics question. I'm really struggling with this. I know that we're in fractional-reserve banking and that we borrow money into existence. How then can this government simultaneously write off the debt—it disappears—and yet the debt still remains on another balance sheet for a third party collector and the person who owes it?

[Atiq Rahman]

If I could just add—and Mark you might be more useful here—I don't think it stays with the third party collector at this point. There is no active collection after that point once it is written off.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

If you've written it off your books, then how is it that the people who owe it still have it as a liability? How does it exist in two places at the same time?

[Atiq Rahman]

The way it works is that the consequence of having a loan written off is that they will no longer receive any other student loans or grants. If they want to apply for another one, they will have to—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Does it still show up as a liability on the government's books?

[Atiq Rahman]

Mark, you might be more useful there.

[Mark Perlman]

In answer to that question, no, it does not. It is not actively pursued, but as Atiq mentioned, we do keep the records, so if the person does want to pay it back, they can.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

But it's not a liability in the government's books.

This, to me is the Ponzi scheme that we have in capitalist debt financing. Companies, whether it's the government or the predatory payday loans that we have here, work on a continuum of debt that appears and disappears and reappears in so many different ways to the advantage of the financier instead of the person who's actually receiving the debt. I'm just wondering if there couldn't be a more equitable way to transfer debt.

Once it's discharged, there are no more collections after that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Provide a very short answer, please.

[Mark Perlman]

Once the loan is written off, there are no more active collection activities that take place.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, members, for your very thoughtful questions and observations.

I'd like to thank our witnesses for joining us today and would now invite you to leave the meeting as we move into some committee business.

Madam Clerk, is the room clear?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Angela Crandall]

Yes, I believe it's just the members now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Okay, colleagues, thank you very much for allowing for this quick little bit of committee business that we need to take care of before December 10th. We have three meetings left until the House rises for the Christmas break, and we still don't have anything scheduled for one of those meetings, the date that I just mentioned, December 10th.

In the proposed calendar, we had recommended studying either the report on respect in the workplace from the fall of 2019, or oversight of Government of Canada advertising from the spring of 2019. However, in discussions with the Treasury Board, the clerk has learned that they would not be available to appear on December 10, so I'm wondering if the committee wishes to move forward with a study on respect in the workplace on December 10.

If you have any thoughts on that, please raise your hand.

I see Mr. Blanchette-Jocas.