Evidence of meeting #20 for Public Accounts in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was public.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:40 p.m.
Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
The question broke up a little bit for me, but I believe either Ms. Acton or Mr. Blais can answer.
12:40 p.m.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
I will repeat my question, Madam Chair.
Mr. Wallace, can you confirm for us that government spending on advertising has increased over the past five years? Has it increased, yes or no?
12:40 p.m.
Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I can't confirm that directly, but I believe that Mr. Blais or—
12:40 p.m.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
I can confirm it, Mr. Wallace. They invested $36 million in 2016, $39 million in 2017 and $58 million in 2018.
Why is more being spent when it's cheaper to place online ads with the Web giants, on digital platforms?
12:40 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Receiver General and Pensions Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Madam Chair, I can set the record straight.
According to the report, from 2015 to 2016, the amount invested decreased from $42 million to $36 million. From 2016 to 2017, it increased from $36 million to $39 million, and from 2017 to 2018, it went up from $39 million to $58 million. However, from 2018 to 2019, according to the latest public report, it went down from $58 million to $50 million.
So it varies from year to year. It should also be recognized that, in election years, no advertising is done for five to six months.
12:40 p.m.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you for the clarifications, Mr. Blais. In that case, can you explain why we see a $20 million increase from 2017 to 2018?
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly Block
Mr. Blanchette-Joncas, I'm sorry, but your time is up.
We will now move to Mr. Green for six minutes.
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you.
I'd like to pick up on it. Mr. Blanchette-Joncas has some great lines of questioning.
I'm also stuck on the threshold.
As you know, Madam Chair, I'm on OGGO and procurement. We used to be on that committee together. One of the ways in which we found the public service skirted these thresholds was that rather than have $300,000 as a contract, it would be broken up 10 times into $30,000 or something like that.
Just to be clear, when we talk about the thresholds, is this per company for the entire year? It would make sense if it's only on the actual contract at hand. For instance, could one company have four contracts for $249,000?
12:45 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
I could start, but I suspect I'll turn to Jean-Pierre in a moment.
It's for the campaign. My understanding—and, Jean-Pierre, correct me if you need to, or elaborate—is a campaign could involve multiple contracts. It's the campaign that I believe is the threshold, but I'll turn to Jean-Pierre.
12:45 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
I'll accept that.
Maybe Jean-Pierre would have this question.
Is it the case that many of these firms bid on multiple contracts and multiple campaigns, or is there a diversity of firms for all the different needs?
12:45 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Receiver General and Pensions Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
It is by campaign, so it's globally. You look at the campaign. Even though it may be small—earlier we were talking about digital advertising—if it's a large campaign but there's a small very low-cost digital, it's still subject to review. What happens is the creative side is done by the departments, and they may use a standing offer or something else to do that, and then the placement is done by the agency of record, and the vast majority of the costs involve the agency of record. As you may or may not know, that is done by a very transparent public process and it's the agency of record that places that for everyone, for all the public.
12:45 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
That's helpful.
You mentioned that 80% of these contracts are caught through this process. What happens to the 20%? How do we quality control that?
February 23rd, 2021 / 12:45 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Again, 80% of the spending is what, I believe, Mr. Wallace said, but from a campaign perspective, if you're below that threshold, you're into a world where, again, the deputy head of the advertising department is accountable for the content. PSPC has a role to provide technical advice on legislative and policy compliance, but it's advice, and then it's at the department's discretion as to whether it wants, even though it's below a threshold, the review process to occur. That's a tool it has available to it should it so choose.
Exactly the same standards apply; there's just no external review.
12:45 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Without an external review, one of the things brought up in the report and in fact also said today was that the auditor can make assessments only on the information available, and there seems to have been significant information not available. I'm hearing today that some of this stuff has been remedied, which is good, but again, I'm also stuck on the fact that a low number of complaints is indicative of something there.
Through you, Madam Chair, to the deputy AG, how does whistle-blowing play into this? In their assessments and in this audit, are they looking at how there's a correlation between a culture that would allow for reporting or complaints internally to the public service versus...? I don't know. I'm just trying to get a sense of how better supported whistle-blowing programs might provide more clarity or raise more alarms early on.
12:45 p.m.
Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
I'll answer that question as briefly as I can, because I suspect that time is running short.
The whole idea of whistle-blowing campaigns and complaint mechanisms is an important element in enhancing public trust. There are a number of ways that people can bring matters forward, the complaint process being one of them. We're always interested in hearing from the public about matters that they come across in their interactions with government. Of course, there are the internal mechanisms within departments, such as raising a concern to a deputy minister about the way that public servants are acting. Ultimately, the question that you bring up might be one that I understand the committee will be looking at shortly, about culture in the public service.
12:45 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Well, this is just it. We've had some studies that talk about a reluctance of public sector workers to speak up. I'm wondering how we might be able to apply this to this particular program given what's at stake. I think about Mr. Cutler. We've seen him before committee. Certainly he's a very passionate public servant continuing that work on transparency, but I can't imagine things ended very well for him back in 1996 when he first raised these concerns. I'm just wondering how we've been able to remedy that to ensure that if people see something, they have the ability to say something. Again, this is coming off a significant $100-million scandal with multiple layers of complexity going back to the mid-1990s.
I guess I'll leave it there. I want to thank everybody for being so candid in their responses. Hopefully, we can provide some recommendations out of this committee that will help enhance future reporting back to this committee.
Thank you.
12:50 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Receiver General and Pensions Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Madam Chair, perhaps I could quickly add something.
As a professional public servant who is subject to a code of conduct about non-partisanship, I have no doubt that I or my team, the reviewers would feel comfortable and supported if we had any concerns about non-partisan advertising occurring.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly Block
Thank you very much, Mr. Green and Mr. Blais.
We will now go to our last round of questioning, which is a five-minute round. I will take the last minute to give you a couple of reminders as members of the committee.
We have Mr. Lawrence for five minutes.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I'm going to go back to the zero complaints, and I believe that's been clarified to be for 2020. I just want to know if you've done any surveys with respect to viewers of the advertisements and whether they were aware of the ability to complain.
12:50 p.m.
Assistant Secretary, Strategic Communications and Ministerial Affairs, Treasury Board Secretariat
I think what I would say is no, not per se, but as I say, we have talked about some of the ways in which that complaint mechanism is made known. I would say that it is also something we're watching very closely, just given the relatively early period of implementation, but obviously given the importance of it as well.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
12:50 p.m.
Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
Thank you very much.
I just wanted to make a precision. In our report, we did mention in paragraph 4.61 that we had received information from the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat officials and PSPC officials that they were not aware of any complaints in the period prior to 2020 as well. I just wanted to make that clear on the record.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON
Thank you.
On the advertisements, whether they be advertisements on the web, on paper or on the radio, is there ever contained a disclaimer or a warning or suggestion that people can complain? It is common practice. The Mutual Fund Dealers Association of Canada puts that on every form. Is there any of that disclosure?