Evidence of meeting #20 for Public Accounts in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was public.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Andrew Hayes  Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
Bill Matthews  Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Angela Crandall
Peter Wallace  Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Kelly Acton  Assistant Secretary, Strategic Communications and Ministerial Affairs, Treasury Board Secretariat
Michelle Salvail  Principal, Office of the Auditor General
Jean-Pierre Blais  Assistant Deputy Minister, Receiver General and Pensions Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

11:35 a.m.

Assistant Secretary, Strategic Communications and Ministerial Affairs, Treasury Board Secretariat

Kelly Acton

Yes. It is available on Canada.ca. Particularly this year, where we are seeing visible Government of Canada communications activity, I would share that, for example, on our social media accounts, we have promoted four times, since November of last year, aspects of the policy and the fact there is this oversight mechanism, and most recently, about the form itself, at the end of January.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Mr. Hayes, in your opening statements, you mentioned there were 50 additional campaigns that underwent a mandatory external review, including those related to COVID-19, and that the review results showed there were more instances of non-compliance with criteria of accuracy, factualness and objectivity. Why is that?

11:35 a.m.

Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Andrew Hayes

The numbers I mentioned there were illustrative in the sense that we did not audit them, but we did look to see whether anything had changed from the information we provided in our audit report.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly Block

We will now go to Mr. Blanchette-Joncas for six minutes.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the honourable members and all of our witnesses.

My question is for you, Mr. Hayes. Thank you for being here today. It's always a pleasure to have you. Please say hello to Ms. Hogan for us.

I practically jumped out of my seat at the beginning of your remarks. Specifically, I'm referring to paragraph four, where you said, and I quote, “the government's oversight of advertising was not sufficiently robust to ensure that no public funds were spent on partisan advertising.” I am sure you can easily see where I'm going with this. It brings to mind a dark moment in our recent history involving the Government of Canada and its advertising spending, as you can appreciate.

Given your findings, can you say with certainty that we will never experience another sponsorship scandal?

11:35 a.m.

Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Andrew Hayes

Thank you for your question.

Our audit results revealed the need to improve the review of advertising campaigns. For example, we noted that the files we reviewed lacked the evidence to determine whether campaigns adhered to the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat's criteria.

Accordingly, I cannot assure the committee that the agency conducts a robust review of advertising campaigns.

11:40 a.m.

Bloc

Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Thank you for clarifying that, Mr. Hayes. It's rather troubling that we can't be certain public money isn't being used for partisan activities. I also realize that the circumstances today aren't what they were back then, circumstances that led to the Gomery commission. Since the same political party is in power now, I don't mind telling you that I have concerns.

You also noted that the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat failed to properly examine the external reviews conducted by Ad Standards—failed, in fact, to examine them at all. In your remarks, you pointed to the differences in the outreach of government advertising campaigns.

In the current context, the messaging around handwashing to prevent the spread of COVID-19 would not be considered partisan, of course. I can, however, think of advertising campaigns that might cause confusion, those run by Economic Development Canada, the Business Development Bank of Canada and Destination Canada, for example.

In light of the current political climate, not to mention your audit findings and the millions of dollars spent on government advertising, can you confirm to the committee that you will be keeping a close eye on what happens next and initiating another audit to keep things from getting out of hand?

11:40 a.m.

Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Andrew Hayes

As always, our audit choices are based on a risk analysis. Our office now has a process to review past audits. Ms. Salvail oversees that work. We may review the observations and findings from any of our past audits, including this one.

11:40 a.m.

Bloc

Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Thank you for that information, Mr. Hayes.

According to paragraph 4.8 of the report, your office's roles and responsibilities include reviewing advertising campaigns for compliance with not just policy requirements for non-partisanship, but also the Official Languages Act.

Mr. Hayes, in addition to issues around non-partisanship, did the Office of the Auditor General identify any compliance issues involving the Official Languages Act?

11:40 a.m.

Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Andrew Hayes

I'm going to ask Ms. Salvail to answer that question. I think the deputy minister of Public Services and Procurement Canada could answer that as well.

February 23rd, 2021 / 11:40 a.m.

Michelle Salvail Principal, Office of the Auditor General

Thank you.

We didn't examine that aspect. The bulk of our focus was on partisanship and those compliance requirements. That said, in the files we reviewed, we didn't note any specific issues in that regard.

11:40 a.m.

Bloc

Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Madam Chair, I want to be sure I understand what Ms. Salvail just said.

They didn't focus on that aspect, but they didn't identify any issues.

I'd like to know whether the matter received any attention, since reviewing for compliance with the Official Languages Act falls under the department's roles and responsibilities and is subject to the audit, as per paragraph 4.8 of the report.

Do you have any information on that, Ms. Salvail? If you can't provide us with an answer now, would you mind getting back to us in writing?

11:40 a.m.

Principal, Office of the Auditor General

Michelle Salvail

What I meant to say was that we didn't look specifically at that aspect because it wasn't within the scope of the audit. We did note, however, that the advertising or analyses appeared on the website in both official languages.

When Ad Standards reviewers conducted their advertising analyses, they looked at both the English and the French versions, so we did not examine the issue specifically. Indirectly, however, we noted that it didn't come up as an issue in the analyses conducted by Ad Standards and Public Services and Procurement Canada.

11:45 a.m.

Bloc

Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Thank you, Ms. Salvail.

You mentioned the website. Obviously, the Government of Canada conducts television campaigns. Did you note the same thing with respect to TV ads? Were different audience demographics taken into account? Quebec has a mostly French-speaking population. In Canada, did the government's television campaigns comply with the Official Languages Act?

11:45 a.m.

Principal, Office of the Auditor General

Michelle Salvail

We really didn't investigate that aspect, so I can't say.

11:45 a.m.

Jean-Pierre Blais Assistant Deputy Minister, Receiver General and Pensions Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Madam Chair, I have some information I could add.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly Block

Mr. Blais, please provide a very short answer. We are quite over time.

11:45 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Receiver General and Pensions Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Jean-Pierre Blais

The Commissioner of Official Languages has looked into this issue, and of course the advisory service of the department includes looking at this.

It, of course, ensures that official languages obligations are met when it comes to the communications policy.

11:45 a.m.

Bloc

Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Madam Chair, I'm looking for any information, any evidence to support that, but there is nothing in the audit.

Could the witnesses ask their respective departments to send us the information? I'm not satisfied with what we've heard.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly Block

Thank you very much, Mr. Blanchette-Joncas.

We can certainly ask for additional information to be provided in writing, if that is your request. Yes?

If you could provide us with that answer in writing, that would be much appreciated, and if we could receive that answer within three weeks, we would also appreciate that.

Thank you.

We will now move to Mr. Green for six minutes.

11:45 a.m.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm going to begin by building on some of the line of questioning of my friend, Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas from the Bloc.

Mr. Hayes, are the ad materials submitted for review by PSPC and the ad standard only in English and French?

11:45 a.m.

Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Andrew Hayes

I would ask Madam Salvail if she would be able to answer that question.

11:45 a.m.

Principal, Office of the Auditor General

Michelle Salvail

I believe that Public Services and Procurement Canada...all the advertising is submitted in both official languages.

11:45 a.m.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Are these the only ones that are reviewed by Ad Standards?

11:45 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Receiver General and Pensions Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Jean-Pierre Blais

Perhaps I can add something.