Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 23rd, 2021

[Kelly Acton]

Perhaps I would offer that one thing that is actually really critical for all Government of Canada advertising is clear attribution to the Government of Canada, so in the event that someone did see an ad and had concerns, they would have no doubt, in fact, that it was an ad representing the government.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Yes, but they wouldn't know necessarily that there was a complaint procedure.

[Kelly Acton]

I would say I'm not aware of ads that have that included in the ad content.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

It might be something to consider. I'd also recommend doing a survey, as I believe that would actually let you guys know whether anyone's reviewing it. Is it zero complaints? If, for example, there were no complaints about discrimination in the workplace, I would be worried. I'd be very concerned. Why aren't people reporting that? I wouldn't just say, “You know what? Maybe there's no discrimination.”

I think we need to look at that seriously.

I'm hoping that you can dissuade me of some concerns I have. Let's just say that the government decides to push its tentacles into the public service, as has happened in SNC-Lavalin, or might have happened in the WE Charity scandal. Then they say, “You know what? This Philip Lawrence guy keeps asking our officials all these annoying questions. We want to get rid of him.”

There's a flooding issue that's around my riding, and Bay of Quinte has a Liberal member. They say they're going to pump in 25 thousand dollars' worth of media to say how much they're doing to protect against flooding in that particular riding, but they're not going to put that money in.... I'm wondering if there's anything external to stop that $25,000 social media control, because I'm not hearing any. I want to believe there is, but I'm not hearing any.

[Kelly Acton]

I apologize as the audio did cut in and out for a moment, but I would say that even that very small amount of money is subject to all of the same protections and prohibitions around...and it cannot be non-partisan and it cannot be otherwise part of a larger campaign. The definition of non-partisan for the first time is now articulated in definitions in both the policy on communications and the directive on the—

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

I get that. There are rules and you guys have done some great jobs. I have no doubt that the public service works very hard every day to be non-partisan, but if you had pressure put on and you felt like you couldn't whistle-blow, is there an external review for that?

[Kelly Acton]

What I would say is that the external complaint process is available for any ads, no matter how small or how large.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Okay, so there's no external review for under $250,000. Then, it is conceivable that we could get something that was partisan out of the door for under $250,000.

[Peter Wallace]

It's still, of course, subject to exactly the same policies and all of the same professionalism and other elements.

Obviously, under extreme scenarios, any of these things could become compromised, and that's where the complaints mechanism, but also the general guardianship of the public service and the professionalism, needs to come into place.

I think Mr. Blais has already spoken about the broad reliance on the professionalism of the public service in this area.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lawrence, Mr. Wallace and Ms. Acton.

We will now go to our last questioner for five minutes.

Ms. Shanahan.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

It is a real pleasure to have the opportunity to be part of this committee. I welcome the chance also to thank our public servants here today from the Auditor General's office, PSPC and the Treasury Board for the work that they do. The integrity that they bring to the table, I think, is unparalleled when we look at what happens elsewhere.

Indeed, it reminds me very much of some of these conversations and discussions that we had when I was on the public accounts and government operations committee three or four years ago: that the intent of the legislation and the policy was that, regardless of the government in power, the public servants would be empowered to make those determinations of what constitutes partisan advertising and would be able to act accordingly.

On that note, I would like to ask what the criteria are. Maybe give me a couple of examples of what constitutes partisan advertising.

[Kelly Acton]

I will answer very quickly from, again, the definitions that underpin the communications policy and the directive on communications. Non-partisan means objective, factual and explanatory and free from any political party identifiers or slogans. The primary colour of the governing party cannot be present, unless an item is commonly depicted in that colour. It cannot carry the name, voice or image of a minister, member of Parliament or senator. That's the definition of non-partisan.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Very good. Thank you.

I understand the Auditor General's point that there is a deficiency in documentation. That has been noted, because I can appreciate that the Auditor General cannot measure or report on what is not seen, so I would like to ask about the documentation process, both internally in government departments and with the Ad Standards Council.

Can someone respond to that?

[Jean-Pierre Blais]

Perhaps I can help on that side.

If there was an advertising campaign, under the federal policy the department would develop a rather elaborate communications plan. If it's subject to review, we would also receive that, and there would be two review processes.

Maybe I can add—and Deputy Matthews mentioned it a moment ago in his opening remarks—that we're positioning a new AdMIS program. It's going to come online on the first of April. It's a cloud-based solution that will allow much better documentation of the various steps. Going forward, quite apart from the new criteria that we outlined that we put in following the Auditor General's report, we will have a system that actually is able to track even better the ad-clearing process.

Thank you.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you for that.

I actually want to note for the benefit of other committee members that something that we were seized with a few years ago was the matter around data capture. That was something where there were great deficiencies. It's very hard to measure and review what you don't have data concerning.

Also, I want to commend the departments on their completion of the action reports. That was another issue that we were seized with. The Auditor General's reports would be produced at much cost and with much attention, but then were not necessarily followed up on. Now I see the action reports that are communicated to this committee, which are very useful. We can see the progress that is made or not made and can react accordingly.

Madam Chair, do I have any time left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

You have one minute.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

My last question concerns that external process. How long does that take? I see that there certainly are a number of campaigns that were referred to the external process. How long does it take?

[Jean-Pierre Blais]

It really depends on the creative. We're bundling it. As others have said earlier, a campaign can have a lot of creative elements, from a full-scripted storyboard television ad or radio ad to just a banner. If it is just a banner, you can imagine that it doesn't take a lot of time and the turnaround from the initial review to the final review can be a matter of days. If it's more complicated, it obviously takes more time.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Are we talking about days, weeks or months? Has it every happened that it's much longer?

[Jean-Pierre Blais]

No, it's rather efficient. We are talking days.

Remember that there is an initial review, so they already are aware of the creative by then.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much, Ms. Shanahan and Mr. Blais.

Witnesses, I would like to thank you for attending our meeting today and for the testimony you have provided. We do appreciate it.

I will invite you to take your leave. Thank you.

Colleagues, I have just a very quick reminder that there is no committee meeting on Thursday, but you should have received an invitation for the Auditor General's virtual lock-up, which is happening between 12 p.m. and 1 p.m., eastern standard time. The log-on information will be sent to you later this week.

Is the committee in agreement to adjourn the meeting?

I see thumbs up. Great. Thank you.

The meeting is adjourned.