Evidence of meeting #20 for Public Accounts in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was public.
A video is available from Parliament.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Well, I hope I'm here for the opportunity to review that in the future.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly Block
Thank you very much, Mr. Green, Mr. Matthews and Mr. Hayes.
I will now move to the next round of questioning, which is a six-minute round, starting with Mr. Berthold.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I would like to ask Mr. Hayes the following question.
So far, have the responses provided addressed the Auditor General's concerns?
Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
Thank you for your question.
Yes, we recognize that departments have made improvements. I'm still a little concerned that some advertising campaigns may not be subject to external review. As we said earlier, it is important to look into some campaigns that do not cost a lot, but that target a specific topic or audience.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
My next question is for Mr. Wallace.
Does submitting smaller campaigns for external review require a legislative change or could the Treasury Board decide to implement it itself?
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
My question was for Mr. Wallace.
I don't want to ask the question in English. I hope that my time will not be counted for this delay.
Assistant Secretary, Strategic Communications and Ministerial Affairs, Treasury Board Secretariat
Madam Chair, I believe that the secretary was cut off again.
I want to make sure I understand the question. Was the member asking what it takes to change the criteria?
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
No. My question is very simple.
The Deputy Auditor General has just told us that many advertising campaigns are still not subject to external review.
What would it take to make those campaigns, the remaining 20%, subject to external review?
Would it take a legislative change or can the Treasury Board and Public Services and Procurement Canada go ahead themselves?
Assistant Secretary, Strategic Communications and Ministerial Affairs, Treasury Board Secretariat
As we have explained, the amounts we currently have are going to—
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
Ms. Acton, I want to know whether the Treasury Board Secretariat or the department can take action directly or whether they need to change the legislation.
It's a simple question.
Assistant Secretary, Strategic Communications and Ministerial Affairs, Treasury Board Secretariat
As a matter of policy, I feel that the discussion should take place outside the department.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
Thank you, that's what I wanted to know.
Is Mr. Wallace back?
Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Yes, I'm here.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
Great.
Mr. Wallace, the Auditor General was very clear about the other criteria. You seem to want to stick to the financial criteria for the external reviews.
Given the concern raised by several committee members and the Auditor General, do you intend to go further or have you conclusively rejected the idea of using the other criteria?
Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I very much appreciate this line of questioning. I am sensitive to the issues being raised at this committee.
The external review is designed to make sure that ads are fully consistent with the criteria. When Treasury Board undertook, in response to the auditor's request, a full review, we did look at lowering the threshold. We looked at a variety of other elements as well. The challenge with the other elements, to be quite frank, is that they are inherently subjective. We've already had a conversation at this committee about the nuanced nature of those elements.
It remains my view, although obviously we will listen very carefully to the sense of the committee, that there is, frankly, no free lunch in advertising. The best understanding, the best mechanism we can get for understanding the reach, impact and potential risk of public funds remains firmly embedded in the fiscal amount. It's very clear, very explainable, technically defensible criteria.
If we try to get into other aspects, such as the questions about handwashing or some other elements, frankly, we're introducing a subjective element. That subjective element is probably best implemented by Ad Standards Canada or by the people who are originally proposing the advertising at the department level.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
Mr. Wallace, would it be possible to do some tests?
Is there a way to pick some campaign to verify what you are saying?
Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
There are a couple of different ways. As raised earlier in the conversation, departments proposing the advertising, even if it's under $250,000, could still submit that advertising to the external review if it was a particularly sensitive topic.
February 23rd, 2021 / 12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
Do you know how many of these campaigns for which the threshold was lowered to $250,000 were voluntarily submitted for review?
Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I think the policy is relatively recent, and I don't know, Ms. Acton, if we have that information at our fingertips right now.
Assistant Secretary, Strategic Communications and Ministerial Affairs, Treasury Board Secretariat
I can confirm that some were, but we will send you the information about it.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly Block
Thank you very much, Ms. Acton and Mr. Berthold.
We did stop the clock while we were having some technical difficulties.
We will now move to Mr. Blois for six minutes.
Liberal
Kody Blois Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to our witnesses.
Earlier in today's discussion we had a conversation around the complaint process and how to go about finding it. Mr. Berthold, you raised this, and it piqued my interest in seeing what the process actually was. I did a Google search and found it on the second listing.
Ms. Acton, I want you to know that I have filed a complaint. Of course, it's a test complaint, and I've written that there. It took about two minutes. It speaks, certainly, to the process, that it is pretty straightforward. I was very casual off the street in finding that on Google, and within two minutes I was able to file a complaint. It is pretty straightforward in terms of moving forward.
One of the questions I had going through it.... Of course, this is confidential. You're not asked to give any type of information or parameters around who you are. I can understand that to a certain extent, but have we considered being able to leave some information, such that when a decision is made on the complaint—as you said, it's usually about 10 days that you try to file and make a decision—is there some way for individuals who are doing that to track that through the system if they have busy lives and maybe don't stay connected? Have we considered that?
Assistant Secretary, Strategic Communications and Ministerial Affairs, Treasury Board Secretariat
The entries on the form are very much intended to protect personal information should people not wish to provide it. People may choose to, and we would treat that accordingly. As we post, should we get a complaint—and again, I would just say that we haven't yet—we would post that review publicly. My hope would be that somebody who had made a complaint would be tracking for that outcome and would know how to then get in touch should they request more information.