Evidence of meeting #20 for Public Accounts in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was public.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Andrew Hayes  Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
Bill Matthews  Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Angela Crandall
Peter Wallace  Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Kelly Acton  Assistant Secretary, Strategic Communications and Ministerial Affairs, Treasury Board Secretariat
Michelle Salvail  Principal, Office of the Auditor General
Jean-Pierre Blais  Assistant Deputy Minister, Receiver General and Pensions Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

All right, Madam Chair.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly Block

Thank you.

We will now go to our two-and-a-half-minute round, starting with Mr. Blanchette-Joncas.

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My question is for you, Mr. Hayes. In your introduction to the general information section, in point 4.2, you wrote that the 2016–17 fiscal year was the first year that the Government of Canada spent more on digital advertising than television advertising. It was known at the time that the government was spending more for online advertising, but the $500,000 threshold was lowered to $250,000 precisely because online advertising is cheaper.

Would you say that the government was slow to amend the legislation as an external review mechanism?

12:15 p.m.

Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Andrew Hayes

Changes in the ways people communicate and use digital media bring to the fore the significant risks associated with campaigns and audiences. In our view, it's not just a question of the cost of the advertising.

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Thank you, Mr. Hayes.

My next question is for Mr. Wallace.

Since 2016–17, we have known that the government has been spending more on online advertising, but the threshold remained $500,000. You yourself said that the new threshold of $250,000, which has been in effect since April 1, 2020, has helped you capture 80% of the government's annual advertising budget.

Are you saying that, for four years, the mechanism was inadequate because the threshold was too low?

12:15 p.m.

Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat

Peter Wallace

I appreciate the question.

We should recall through all of this that this is a backstop, that there is an obligation on public servants to not undertake partisan advertising and that campaigns should never be partisan in any way. What we have established is not only an existing policy but also a review mechanism to ensure that this policy is implemented.

We need also to have thresholds associated with that simply so there is a responsible use of government money. We maintain a degree of efficiency and effectiveness in terms of the allocation of our resources, and almost every policy does require a threshold of $500,000, as the Auditor General correctly pointed out.

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Madam Chair, I am not sure that he answered my question.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly Block

I'm sorry.

Pardon me, Mr. Wallace.

12:15 p.m.

Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly Block

I have the member making an intervention.

Yes, Mr. Blanchette-Joncas.

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair. I hope that I haven't lost any precious seconds.

Mr. Wallace, in 2018–19, the government spent five times more on online advertising—

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly Block

I am sorry, Mr. Blanchette-Joncas, your time was up with Mr. Wallace's answer.

I know that two and a half minutes go by very fast.

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Madam Chair, can you check again? I tried to interrupt Mr. Wallace a couple of times, but he kept talking.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly Block

Sure, I can check it with the clerk. We are both timing the rounds of questions and answers to test our understanding of the time with one another.

Madam Clerk.

12:15 p.m.

The Clerk

The timer was up. I don't stop the timer when the witness is responding, so perhaps there were a few seconds lost. It's at the discretion of the chair to give those back if she wishes.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly Block

I am not sure what time was lost. I looked at my timer. We were well at the two-minute, 30-second mark.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON

The first interruption I had was at 2:33.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly Block

Okay, thank you very much.

I trust that satisfies you, Mr. Blanchette-Joncas, with a number of us having our timers on.

I will now move to Mr. Green for two and a half minutes.

February 23rd, 2021 / 12:20 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Thank you.

It's hard to believe it was 25 years ago that Allan Cutler first raised alarms about ad scams and bid rigging, and here we are, I think at a very important point in time, with the kind of spending we have in COVID.

Hopefully, through this committee, we can get at any of the shortcomings of this current program with some solid recommendations so that post-COVID, when we look back at this, we will have had a better and more fulsome program.

I want to go back to the deputy AG and talk about paragraph 4.48, where you stated:

We found that the Department provided no guidance to its communications advisors (for example, through manuals or training) on how to conduct reviews, including what criteria to apply and how to apply them, or on the requirement to document their analysis. In our view, this lack of guidance could lead to inconsistencies in how different communications advisors interpret and apply government advertising review criteria.

What is your response to that particular statement, knowing that post-COVID, we're going to have to look back on this? What would be your recommendations in terms of making sure there is a service standard across all departments?

12:20 p.m.

Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Andrew Hayes

Thank you for the question.

I would note that the deputy minister has responded to the recommendation. While we haven't had an opportunity to audit the situation now, we note that guidance and training have been provided, according to the deputy minister, and that addresses our recommendation.

Perhaps the more important point I'll make is that, likewise, it's important that the documentation of the results of their review be captured on file in order for oversight to be conducted as well.

12:20 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

In paragraph 4.49 it states that there was “little evidence that the Department reviewed all advertising campaigns against all non-partisanship criteria in a consistent and thorough manner.”

Did they respond to that in an adequate way?

12:20 p.m.

Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Andrew Hayes

That's where we haven't gone back to do the audit work to be able to assess whether or not that has changed.

Again, there we noted, like we did with the reviews conducted by Ad Standards, that it's important that factual statements and statistics be supported by evidence on file.

12:20 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

I appreciate your work, Mr. Hayes, and all the staff who are here.

Hopefully, in seeing some of these shortcomings, we can get this in place for reviews that happen post-COVID. The volume of money that has gone out is significant and material, and I hope we can account for some of these inadequacies.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

12:20 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Bill Matthews

Madam Chair, if I could jump in on that, one thing to keep in mind here is that this is a report from 2019, so the downside is that we had to dust off the report and re-familiarize ourselves with it.

The plus side is that the department has had time to implement the recommendations, so I think we're in a world now where we believe we've addressed the AG's recommendations. Obviously, we'll have to keep on top of it to make sure it stays in place, but we think we've addressed the recommendations of the AG quite thoroughly.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly Block

Thank you.