Evidence of meeting #22 for Public Accounts in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was reports.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Karen Hogan  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
Glenn Wheeler  Principal, Office of the Auditor General
Nicholas Swales  Principal, Office of the Auditor General
Kimberly Leblanc  Principal, Human Resources, Office of the Auditor General
Andrew Hayes  Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly Block

I call this meeting to order. Colleagues, welcome here today to meeting number 22 of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. As the committee is meeting in public today to receive two separate briefings, there will be two one-hour panels. During the first hour, the Auditor General will provide us with a further briefing on the reports that were tabled in the House on Thursday, February 25. During the second hour, we will begin a study of the departmental plans for 2021-22 and the main estimates for 2021-22.

As you know, today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of January 25, and therefore members may attend in person in the room or remotely using the Zoom application.

I have a couple of reminders for members and our guests. For those participating virtually, interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either the floor, English or French. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly, and unless there are exceptional circumstances, the use of headsets with a boom microphone is mandatory for everyone participating remotely. Should any technical challenges arise, please do advise me. Note that we may need to suspend for a few minutes as we do want to ensure that all members are able to participate fully.

I believe that we are all attending virtually, so I'd now like to welcome Karen Hogan, Auditor General. With her today are Dawn Campbell, Dusan Duvnjak, Philippe Le Goff, Carol McCalla, Nicholas Swales, and Glenn Wheeler, all of whom are principals

Joining her during the second hour, we'll have Andrew Hayes, deputy auditor general; Kimberly Leblanc, principal, human resources; and Helene Haddad, principal, financial management.

I know that Ms. Hogan does have some opening remarks, so I will turn it over to her for her remarks.

11:05 a.m.

Karen Hogan Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Thank you, Madame Chair.

I am pleased to discuss our audit reports, which were tabled in the House of Commons on February 25. As you mentioned, I am accompanied by all the principals who were responsible for those audits.

Included in my February reports was a copy of our special examination of the Canadian Race Relations Foundation. I am pleased to report that we found no significant deficiencies in the foundation's corporate management practices or management of outreach and awareness activities during the period covered by our audit.

Let's start with our audit of the government procurement of complex IT systems. Many of the government's IT systems are aging and need to be replaced to better serve Canadians. They include systems that deliver benefits like employment insurance, old age security and pensions, systems that are used to pay government employees and systems that support government telecommunications infrastructure.

Overall we found that the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat, Public Services and Procurement Canada, Employment and Social Development Canada, and Shared Services Canada made good progress in modernizing their procurement approaches. For example, in two of the three complex IT procurements we looked at, they introduced new agile practices that included breaking down megaprojects into smaller ones, and they consulted early and often with end-users and private sector suppliers to define business needs and design solutions.

We also found that there was room for improvement in some areas, such as guidance and training for procurement officers and better mechanisms for monitoring fairness, openness, and transparency.

I am encouraged by the openness to explore new ways of doing business that we've noted in this audit. To pave the way for further progress, these organizations will need to build on what they've learned so far to continue modernizing their procurement approaches and maximize services and support for Canadians.

Let's turn now to our audit on the national shipbuilding strategy. This audit provided an opportunity to examine a complex program in its early stages, once the procurement process was completed.

Overall, we found that during our audit period, the national ship building strategy was slow to deliver the combat and non-combat ships that Canada needs to meet its domestic and international obligations for science and defence.

The delivery of many ships has been significantly delayed. Further delays could result in several ships being retired before their replacements are operational.

National Defence, Fisheries and Oceans Canada, Public Services and Procurement Canada and Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada reacted to issues impacting the timely delivery of ships. They made key decisions during the audit so as to improve the prospects of timely future deliveries.

That said, I am still concerned that the strategy has been slow to deliver. Considering the unknown impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on work in departments and shipyards, and with the bulk of new ships yet to be built, departments need to look for opportunities to further improve how they manage risks and contingencies.

I am now going to go to a couple of audits that more closely impact the day-to-day life of Canadians.

The first examined the Canada child benefit program. This income-based benefit program is important to help families who need financial support to raise their children. The audit also reviewed the one-time additional payment of up to $300 per child issued in May 2020 to help eligible families during the COVID-19 pandemic.

Overall, we found that the Canada Revenue Agency managed the Canada child benefit program in a way that provided accurate and timely payments to millions of eligible families. We also noted areas where the agency could improve the administration of the program. For example, a better information-sharing process with other organizations that notified the agency when recipients left the country permanently would enable the agency to avoid issuing payments based on outdated information.

Turning to another people story, we audited Indigenous Services Canada's support to ensure that first nations communities have reliable access to safe drinking water. Despite committing to do so by March 2021, Indigenous Services Canada did not meet the government's commitment to remove all long-term drinking water advisories for public systems in first nations communities.

Drinking water advisories have remained a constant for many communities, with almost half outstanding for more than 10 years. In some cases, advisories were lifted as a result of interim measures that did not fully address the underlying deficiencies. The department's efforts to address the problem have been constrained by a number of issues, including an outdated policy and formula for funding the operation and maintenance of public water systems. The department has also been working to revise the legislative framework to provide first nations communities with drinking water protections comparable to other communities in Canada.

I am very concerned and honestly disheartened that this long-standing issue is still not resolved. Access to safe drinking water is a basic human necessity. I don't believe that anyone would say that this is in any way an acceptable situation in Canada in 2021. Indigenous Services Canada must work in partnership with first nations to develop and implement a lasting solution for safe drinking water in first nations communities.

Let's go now to our last report. This audit followed up on selected recommendations from our 2013 audit of Transport Canada's oversight of rail safety.

We found that Transport Canada had yet to fully address our recommendations from 2013. While the department has made important improvements to the way it plans and prioritizes its activities and follows up on rail company's plans and actions to address deficiencies, it is unable to show whether these actions have contributed to improving rail safety overall. When you devote people and time to addressing issues, you should be able to measure if that investment is making a difference.

Rail safety accidents can have serious consequences causing devastating loss of life and environmental damage. I'm very concerned that while Transport Canada has taken some actions to address our recommendations, eight years after our last audit, there is still much left to do to improve the oversight of rail safety in Canada.

All of these audits touch on areas that have direct and indirect ramifications for Canadians across the country. Whether it's reliable access to safe drinking water or ensuring the safe movement of people and goods on our national railways, there are some serious and long-standing issues here. They need to be resolved permanently, and soon.

This concludes my opening statement.

My colleagues and I will be happy to answer any questions you may have.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly Block

Thank you very much, Ms. Hogan.

We will now go to our first six-minute round of questioning, starting with with Mr. Webber.

March 11th, 2021 / 11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Len Webber Conservative Calgary Confederation, AB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Karen Hogan, for being here today and your principals as well.

I would like to focus on your report and what you alluded to it in your opening comments on access to safe drinking water in first nation communities. In your introduction you talk about safe drinking water being vital to the health and well-being of Canadians, including 3,300 first nation communities. Access to safe drinking water can also boost communities' economic growth and help reduce poverty.

You mentioned, however, that to this day many first nation communities live without this assurance that their drinking water is safe. You mentioned that some first nation communities continue to lack access to safe drinking water. I would like to know how many communities those are.

We all know that the federal government promised to address this long-standing issue in 2015. It committed to eliminating all long-term drinking water advisories on public water systems on first nation reserves by, as you mentioned, March 31, 2021. That's in 20 days. Of course, they have not met that commitment, and it is incredibly disappointing.

Back in 2016 the government allocated $2 billion; on November 20, 2020, $1.5 billion in additional funding, and an additional $114 million per year for maintenance. With all of this money invested, Canadians in first nation communities continue to have issues, and it is a national embarrassment.

Of course, there has been progress because $3.5 billion has been invested in this thing, but we still continue to have a long way to go. I'm assuming that the easy fixes were done long ago, but the more costly and more complex cases remain.

Is that the case, Ms. Hogan?

11:15 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

Madam Chair, hopefully I'll answer all the little bits there. If not, please remind me if I missed something.

You started by talking about drinking water advisories and how many communities are impacted. Our audit covered the period from November 2015 to November 2020. Over that time, 100 long-term drinking water advisories were lifted. At the end of our audit, 60 remained. Those 60 that remain are across 41 communities in the country.

Steps were made to lift some of the long-term drinking water advisories. As you mentioned, the government also mentioned in December that they would not meet the commitment by March. We saw that as well, that they will not meet it by the end of this month.

One of the fundamental issues is the funding formula. This funding formula has not been revisited in 30 years. I would agree with you. Thirty years is a bit of a long-standing issue. Thirty years is a long time to not revisit a funding formula. We found that it's not meeting the needs of the first nations, it's not addressing the actual costs, it hasn't been updated to reflect new technology that might be there, and one of the repercussions is likely that operators are not being paid the same amount as their counterparts in other parts of the country. Hence, having qualified operators is impeding the ability to have good, effective water treatment systems.

It is about finding and addressing those root causes, and not just temporary solutions.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Len Webber Conservative Calgary Confederation, AB

I want to get into that as well, the employee retention and the training in these water treatment facilities. That certainly does seem to be a recurring issue in your report. It is expensive, of course, to train new people in these water treatment facilities.

Is this retention issue unique to the industry and this type of work, or do we see this same retention issue off reserve as well? What are the underlying causes in terms of this retention and the problems with retention?

11:15 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

It's an excellent question when we talk about the north, and we do cover that in so many of our audit reports. I'm not sure if one of my principals wants to add, but let me offer up what I know I've been seeing.

Retaining qualified individuals in the north and having housing for them is a challenge. It continues to be a challenge. It's not just necessarily about salary; it's also about places to live. It's about integrating those individuals into the communities there. It is much broader than just a monetary issue and it is one that we see not just in water treatment facilities, but in other areas that we audit.

I'm not sure if Mr. Wheeler wants to add anything to that or if that answered the member's question.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Len Webber Conservative Calgary Confederation, AB

We know that we want to promote careers on reserve and we strongly encourage and welcome indigenous operators.

Do any of their reserves restrict these water supply jobs to indigenous or band workers only? If so, has this created any continuity issues in operations of the plant? Is it a factor in finding qualified people to fill these positions?

I'll let you address that. I think I've run out of time.

11:20 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

Madam Chair, I'll let Glenn address that, if that's okay.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly Block

Yes, but please provide just a very short answer. I'm sorry.

11:20 a.m.

Glenn Wheeler Principal, Office of the Auditor General

Madam Chair, [Technical difficulty--Editor] long-standing issues.

11:20 a.m.

An hon. member

There is no interpretation.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Madam Chair, I'm having audio issues. I'm not hearing Mr. Wheeler very well.

11:20 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

All I heard him say was that you are correct that it's a really long-standing issue.

I couldn't make much else out.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly Block

That's right. We're definitely having difficulty.

11:20 a.m.

Principal, Office of the Auditor General

Glenn Wheeler

I'm sorry. I seem to be having some problems with my microphone. I don't know if anyone can hear me.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly Block

It's very muffled. It's very difficult to hear you.

Perhaps we can move on to the next questioner and come back to Mr. Webber's question later. I don't know if someone needs to contact—

11:20 a.m.

Bloc

Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Madam Chair, I have a point of order.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly Block

Yes.

11:20 a.m.

Bloc

Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Could you please inform the witnesses that they must wear a headset? The House has a rule on this, and I think that the witnesses should be informed. It would be good if the clerk made sure that witnesses had their headsets for our future meetings because we are losing time right now and we can't do our work properly.

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly Block

Thank you very much, Mr. Blanchette-Joncas.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Len Webber Conservative Calgary Confederation, AB

Madam Chair, perhaps the answer to my question can be distributed to the committee in writing. That way, we can move on.

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly Block

Thank you very much, Mr. Webber.

Ms. Hogan, it would be great if we could get an answer to that question in writing.

We will move on to Mr. Fergus for six minutes.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Ms. Hogan, I would like to thank you again for being with us here today.

Just like Mr. Webber, I find the drinking water advisories in indigenous communities concerning.

Could you please tell us how many advisories on drinking water quality were posted when the government committed to solving the problem?

Have any new water quality advisories been added to the list?

11:20 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

I will do my best to provide you with an answer, as Mr. Wheeler is unable to give any more details due to a technical problem.