Public Accounts Committee on April 29th, 2021

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Ms. Ashton, you have two and a half minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you.

I'd like to ask Indigenous Services Canada to respond to the reality of Tataskweyak Cree Nation. Again, here's my question. The first nation has been clear that the water in their community is undrinkable, yet ISC maintains that guidelines are being met. If yes, why are you maintaining guidelines and what good are they if they are making people sick?

[Christiane Fox]

First of all, you raised a question in your last intervention around whether or not we would penalize people who are taking legal action. I would say categorically no, we would not. We respect the right of indigenous groups to take the decisions that they need to take for their communities.

In terms of the water, the guidelines we have are based on science, and we want to work in lockstep with communities. If people feel that the water is unsafe, not only will we do the testing, but we will also work with our environmental health officers and look at what we can do.

If there are things happening in the community that require health interventions, it also becomes not just a water issue; it becomes the health supports for that community. We would continue to provide support based on science for the guidelines, but also, in recognition that something is happening, we want to work in partnership with the leadership to address that.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Well, I would urge you to do so. Something is happening, and the first nation has made it clear that going to court is not their number one choice. What they want is clean drinking water now. Let's be honest: Canada is able to deliver that. Political will is what we need to see.

I want to go back to the Auditor General and ask her about another first nation in our region, Shamattawa.

Shamattawa First Nation has had a long-term boil water advisory, a housing crisis and a tuberculosis outbreak, and was on the national news because of its devastating COVID-19 outbreak before Christmas. It was so serious that the military had to step in, in full force. Few communities in this country have had to bear the brunt of Canada's failures like Shamattawa First Nation.

Can you expand on how the housing crisis in particular affects a community's capacity to deliver safe drinking water and what needs to be done to get at these crises together?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Could we have a very short answer, Ms. Hogan?.

[Karen Hogan]

I guess what I would add to that really quickly is that we have studied all of these issues that many first nations face. When there is a housing crisis, there is overcrowding in homes and, as we've seen throughout the pandemic, that just makes situations worse.

The only thing I would say about drinking water is that the public systems are those that serve five houses or more. There are so many systems in first nations reserves that are operated by first nations or by the homeowner, and this is where training is so important, so that the communities can take care of drinking water in all their systems going forward, not just the public ones.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much, Ms. Ashton.

We will now go to our next round of questions. It's a five-minute round, and we're starting with Mr. Lawrence.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you very much.

My first question will be for the Auditor General. I just want to make sure that I understood something. I want to clarify it.

It seems 43% of the systems are at risk. Is that correct? Also, what exactly does “at risk” mean?

[Karen Hogan]

The reference is to a process that Indigenous Services Canada has whereby they do an annual risk assessment of the state of a water system, and 43% of them have been rated as high or medium risk, meaning that they likely haven't had their maintenance done or they perhaps don't have trained operators.

There's a set of criteria that allows the department to rate the state of a system. Forty-three per cent of them have rated “high”, which is an indication that perhaps there will be water advisories. It's at least an indication that you need to pay attention to those systems because maintenance is likely not happening the way it should be happening.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

One thing that came across in the report to me, and maybe you can confirm this or correct me, is that it seemed that you were a little concerned that the government was focusing too much, perhaps, on getting short-term solutions, but not focusing on the long term, such as making sure there were enough operators, etc. Is that a correct thing to be pulling out from your report?

[Karen Hogan]

We did highlight in the report that many of the long-term drinking water advisories that were lifted were lifted by interim measures. We did note, however, that some of those systems had long-term plans, but that they would not be in place until about 2024 or 2025. Just lifting an advisory doesn't mean you've fixed the underlying issue, and that's why it's not a cookie-cutter approach across communities. Each community needs to have its unique long-term sustainable solution, and we shouldn't just be focusing on lifting advisories, but on getting those long-term solutions in place.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

To be clear, I think this as well was pulled out in the other question, but I want to make sure I have it right. In 2015, 43% of the systems were high risk, and in 2020, there were also 43% that were high-risk systems. Is that correct, or do I have that incorrect?

[Karen Hogan]

For high or medium risk, you have that correct at 43%.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Okay.

I know everyone here, especially including the folks who are senior bureaucrats, want to make sure this is taken care of. One thing has bothered me a little bit. I saw a dissonance between your report and the reaction of Ms. Fox. You used the harshest language I've seen so far in any of your reports when you said “disheartened”. What degree of confidence do you have in the government eventually eliminating all drinking advisories, as I know everyone here desperately wants to have happen?

[Karen Hogan]

I'll say that I'm disheartened for first nations communities because so many of us across the country take for granted that when this meeting's over, we're going to walk over to the tap to pour ourselves a glass of water, and so many communities can't do that. That's really what saddens me about all of this.

I can't give you assurances. I do think that's where the department needs to demonstrate, through their action plans and the updating of the funding formula, that they're going to work in collaboration with first nations communities to address this issue and not just, as I mentioned earlier, focus on lifting long-term or short-term drinking water advisories but on finding those long-term sustainable solutions and making sure that first nations have adequately trained operators and good long-term operating and maintenance funding.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you.

I'll go over to you, Ms. Fox. I will let you comment on the Auditor General's comments right there. Rest assured that I believe 110% that your intentions are good and that you work, I'm sure, hours and hours to try to solve these issues, but I see a dissonance and I'm not sure why. Do you realize the issue here and why Canadians are concerned?

[Christiane Fox]

Absolutely, I realize the issue. Absolutely, I am committed to it, and absolutely, the department is committed to it. There is no doubt.

The conversations that we are having with our partners and also with the OAG take very seriously the recommendations that they've brought to us and how it can help inform the way forward. We have a responsibility to do this well and over the long term, and this department's mandate is to actually transform all of our services into the leadership of indigenous communities. To do that, we have to get ourselves ready for that transformation and empower indigenous leaders to take on a system that is fully operational and running well.

There is no doubt that we are 100% committed to this. We have regular discussions with the partners within our team to make sure we are making progress, that we are working collectively to make a difference, that we are—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much. We are over time.

We will now move to the next questioner, Mr. Blois, for five minutes.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I'm going to pass my time to Ms. Yip, but I'll come back in the next round, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, everyone, for all your hard work on this topic. I always feel particularly saddened that our own indigenous communities do not have the same rights to safe drinking water as the rest of us, so this is important work.

My first question is to Ms. Hogan. It concerns your comments about feeling “disheartened” about these programs. What do you think is the most important recommendation?

[Karen Hogan]

I want to tell you that all of our recommendations are important recommendations. I do think addressing the funding formula is a key one, being able to ensure that there's a stable base of funding not only for building the infrastructure but also for its operation and maintenance. You can have a state-of-the-art facility, but if you don't maintain it, eventually there's going to be a problem down the road. That operating and maintenance funding is linked to the ability of first nations communities to attract and retain trained and certified water system operators, and also to have a backup operator.

What we found in our audit is there were many systems—I think 26%—that lacked a trained and certified operator, and then 56% lacked a backup operator. Those are really fundamental to maintaining access to safe drinking water. If I had to pick one out of all of them, I would focus in on that funding formula to make sure that it's updated and meets the needs and new technologies that communities need.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Do you think that there are enough resources or thought put into having these maintenance contracts to ensure that these water operators will be there and be continually trained, and perhaps have outside support come as well to do more training and support?

[Karen Hogan]

I believe that's why one of my comments earlier on was that until the funding formula is updated, it's difficult to determine if the additional commitment of funding will be sufficient to meet the current needs of the first nations communities. I think it's also something that will need to be monitored going forward. It's not going to be a one-and-done solution to make sure that the ongoing maintenance and operating funding is adjusted. Currently it's only adjusted for inflation, but not for other things, and that's why that funding formula update is pretty key to helping support the solution for this situation.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Did the OAG work with the first nations leadership for this audit at all?