Public Accounts Committee on May 11th, 2021

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

I find that absolutely challenging, and of course you've pointed that out very well in your report. There is the fact that Canadian taxpayers are spending billions of dollars and working extremely hard to generate these monies as revenues. To give the benefit of the doubt, perhaps these monies are being spent exceptionally well, but we don't have any reporting to tell us one way or the other.

With respect to Ms. Gillis here, the Auditor General has pointed out that data is a substantial problem, particularly in this horizontal program.

First of all, when will that be fixed? Can you give us a date?

[Kelly Gillis]

We are working with the 21 departments involved to come up with an action plan to look at this particular issue, and to come back with specific dates to have meaningful and complete reporting, as the Auditor General has recommended. That work is under way.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Okay, but we still don't have a date. This program is now six years old, and we still don't know when we're going to have decent reporting to show whether it's successful or not. We simply can't tell whether this program is having any impact, because of this data. We need this data.

I ask again, can we please get a commitment for a date for all the taxpayers who are working out there, the single moms who are contributing their income tax and sales tax to this government, so these programs can be funded? Can we have a date as to when that data will be available?

[Kelly Gillis]

We will have a detailed action plan for the committee before the end of September. We are looking at all of the issues involved. There are 93 programs. For every one of these programs, there is substantial information on the website of the department that is managing it. We're talking about the horizontality of this. We are also investing in things.

With Statistics Canada, there's a new economics account that specifically talks about jobs in infrastructure that didn't exist before, which also helps understand the macro impact we are making. We also see that from 2015 to 2020, public sector investment in infrastructure increased by 15%. That leads to increased jobs. We know that with every million dollars invested in infrastructure, seven jobs are supported.

It's bringing that forward in a way that's meaningful, easy to understand and in one place. There are a number of different data points that point to the right things being done. It's just a matter of bringing it together into one report that can be easily digested and understood.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

The Auditor General, though, has clearly pointed out that you don't have the data you have right now.

If I could get a little technical here, you're working across departments. When the department has inconsistent data, or data you can't use or use well, what are your action steps?

Does the minister come and support you, or why is the minister not giving you that support over the last six years?

[Kelly Gillis]

We are working very collaboratively across 21 departments in 93 programs. When there's a change in reporting, it's often for a very good reason.

I'll give you an example from our own programming. Originally, we thought we would be monitoring transit to 100 metres from housing, so 96% of people would have access to it. That data was not reliable, so we had to change it to best service areas, because different communities manage transit differently and report on it differently to transit authorities.

We had to evolve our data on what's available, and that can happen within the 93 programs for very valid reasons. There's good communication and collaboration in trying to provide consistent comparable information.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lawrence.

We will now go to Mr. Longfield for six minutes.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you to the witnesses and the people in the background who have supported the information that we're getting this morning.

Madam Hogan, I'd like to start with you in terms of the sustainable development goals, which is one of my favourite topics, as you know. I looked at the 17 goals and I thought there are probably nine that apply. The four that certainly apply are goal 6, which is clean water and sanitation; goal 10, reduced inequalities; goal 11, sustainable cities and communities; and goal 13, climate action.

When you're doing your pre-audit planning and then your communication with departments of what you're going to be auditing.... I'm thinking of ISO audits. When the ISO auditors would come to my businesses, they would say they were going to audit in certain sections and they were going to be looking for certain types of things.

Is that something you work on or could be working on with the departments you're auditing, to say that you're going to look for these sustainable development goals or you're going to be looking at committed funds versus spent funds, for example? Do you have that type of meeting before the audits?

[Karen Hogan]

We absolutely do. When we set out to audit a topic, we have many meetings and conversations in order to make sure we understand the universe, the program and what we're looking at.

We then establish criteria that we will audit against. Those criteria are communicated back to all the departments involved. They all agree to the criteria against which we will measure them during the audit. It's well established and agreed to at the onset of every audit we do.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

In the example of sustainable development goals, is that part of a matrix that the departments would then be looking at?

Why did we miss that on this audit?

[Karen Hogan]

I'll highlight that we didn't miss it on this audit. We went looking for it as we normally do on our work. We found that the plan had not incorporated the United Nations sustainable development goals, especially—as you correctly pointed out—as there are so many that would link to it. Even the main objectives of this plan are so closely aligned with sustainable development goals. We were looking for oversight committees to be challenging it and for reporting to be aligned with some of those goals. We didn't see that.

We did hear from departments, however, that it's a requirement for every project individually to consider those goals, but we were just not seeing any reporting back up through the plan. This is a significant plan that could have demonstrated some real advancement and contribution to those goals. We were disappointed to see that was not in there.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

That's very good, and good for you for pointing that out.

It is new. Departments need to start getting into that mindset. Having that as part of your audit is going to help move things forward for departments in future audits.

I'd like to go to Ms. Bowers on CMHC and tracking projects. In my riding we have 12 projects we've been working on with our local CMHC representative. Six of them now have been approved. Last night, I heard that city council has now approved one of the supportive housing projects that we've been working on with CMHC.

As we get from commitment to.... First of all, to get to commitment, we have to get the local city council's involvement. We need to get the province to say that this is supportive housing and that they will support this part of the project. There are a lot of horizontals outside of government. To track the milestones, which is what I'm doing.... Now that I know city council approved this certain project last night in Guelph, I'll be on the phone to CMHC in the next few weeks to see how we're moving ahead with the financing part of that project.

How do we track the milestones? I can only imagine, with the number of projects you have, that has to be a huge challenge.

[Romy Bowers]

First of all, I'd like to thank you for the acknowledgement of our staff on the ground. It's very important for our staff to work directly with the proponents. We recognize that creating affordable housing is challenging. It requires a lot of co-operation and partnerships with many levels of government, profits and non-profits. We recognize the complexity of that.

When we were tasked with delivery of the national housing strategy, we invested very significantly in our technology capabilities. We have amazing systems in place that help us track the milestones you mentioned.

As we first launched the national housing strategy, we were criticized that our processes were too long. Because we had data about the length of the processes, it really allowed us to identify where the pain points were and try to improve to serve Canadians better. It's been a great success story.

Having said that, there's always room for us to improve. I really welcome feedback or comments from any constituents or any Canadians about any of our services. It's only by hearing from them that we can continue to improve on a continuous basis.

Thank you very much.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you. I think the more transparent we are on those, the more communities will understand where we're heading with our projects overall.

Ms. Gillis, the example of the global positioning, the reporting to communities on specific projects and expanding that....

Finally, I'm going to go to Ms. Fox.

The reporting on the boil water advisories I always hold up as the example of good reporting on what projects are in place and what the next milestone is. Is that going to move into the financials as well?

[Christiane Fox]

We are constantly looking at better ways to be open and transparent, and the long-term drinking water advisory work, taking it community by community, is a good approach. We do that, as well, for our infrastructure funding. It's important to note that there is data around the money that has been spent and the completion. I can give you an example, for instance—

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you. I wish I could hear it.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you.

We are over time.

I will now go on to Mr. Blanchette-Joncas for six minutes.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Bowers, I'd like to come back to my earlier statement and get your comments specifically on the rapid housing initiative, which was announced last fall. I'd like you to tell us about the $500 million that wasn't necessarily intended for big cities, but rather for smaller projects.

We know that Quebec signed a $116 million agreement with the federal government in early 2021. I'd like to know whether additional money has been confirmed by the federal government for this envelope.

[Romy Bowers]

I ran out of time in answering this question previously, so my apologies to Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas.

With respect to the second phase of the rapid housing initiative, I will confirm that there were additional funds provided for this in the amount of $1.5 billion in the most recent budget. We're in the process of obtaining our authorities for that and also developing the program. As soon as these details have been confirmed, we will be providing them publicly, so we should have that information in the coming months.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Ms. Bowers, I just want to understand. The $500 million has already been clarified. There was an agreement with CMHC for a federal investment of $116 million in Quebec.

Is there any extra money that Quebec should receive soon that the federal government hasn't yet disclosed.

[Romy Bowers]

I'll just clarify. There was $1 billion dedicated to the first round of the rapid housing initiative—$500 million for the large cities and $500 million for the projects—so all the monies associated with that have been committed and spent, including for the province of Quebec.

Where there is a lack of knowledge and clarity, because it was just in the most recent budget.... There has been an additional commitment of $1.5 billion dollars. The amounts that are going to be dedicated to various streams or to different provinces have yet to be determined, but as soon as those determinations have been made and the appropriate authorities have been granted, we'll be providing information.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

That answers my question, Ms. Bowers.

An additional $1.5 billion was announced in the last budget. As you know, a number of projects submitted under the rapid housing initiative were not selected for lack of funding.

Will these projects automatically be reconsidered or do these people have to redo the work of weeks, if not months in the case of certain organizations?

[Romy Bowers]

If I have time, I'll just answer very quickly. The program design for the $1.5 billion has not been completed, so I'm not able to provide a response to Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas's question at this time. We're working very hard to provide this clarity, and we'll provide it as soon as we're able to.

Thank you very much.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much.

My question is for Ms. Gillis, from the Office of Infrastructure Canada.

Ms. Gillis, I'm tempted to discuss the gas tax program with you. It's now more difficult for some municipalities to use the gas tax budget for infrastructure.

Are you aware of the new terms of the 2019 version as they relate to municipalities?

[Kelly Gillis]

Thank you for the question.

For the gas tax program, agreements were reached in 2014 with the provinces and territories.

I know that Quebec has its own program, which it is joining with ours to enable Quebec to fund various infrastructure projects in the province. Nothing has changed for us since 2014. We are still working with the same program.