Public Accounts Committee on May 27th, 2021

[Bill Matthews]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Same answer: Anything that goes to Treasury Board for approval requires a gender-based analysis, and contracts of this size or projects of this size go through Treasury Board, so the procurement piece goes through us as well.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

The same from ESDC, please, on the record.

[Graham Flack]

Yes. Everything we submit through Treasury Board has the GBA+ analysis.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Lastly, Shared Services, please.

[Paul Glover]

Thank you, Madam Chair, for the member's question.

Same answer as my colleagues: Absolutely.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Madam Chair, I'd like to make a request that all departments please submit in writing the analysis they used for GBA+ on this study, so that we can get a better understanding as to how it was actually implemented beyond the actual policy. If we can get their analyses in writing, that would be greatly appreciated.

I'll relinquish the rest of my time.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much, Mr. Green. I am sure that each one of our witnesses will commit to honouring that request.

We will now go on to our five-minute round, starting with Mr. Berthold.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

A number of things worry me in the Auditor General's report.

First, it is shocking to see that, in the entire instruction book on the agile procurement process, there is no description of what exactly that means. I was very surprised to hear that.

Ms. Hogan, could you tell us how much a process that has not been described can be understood and explained to others?

[Karen Hogan]

We talked to the departments about that during our audit. They explained to us they were trying a new process, a new way of doing things, and that they had not updated their training or their guidelines. However, other countries that have tried to use a more agile procurement process took the time to develop those types of guidelines for employees.

So that is why we issued this recommendation. I actually feel that a better guide should have been provided for those who deal with procurement.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

You provide a number of examples in your report, Ms. Hogan.

You said earlier that you recognize that the government is taking its time, which you say is a good thing. However, there is taking your time and taking your time. I see that, among the procurement processes you described, there is a project at Employment and Social Development Canada that has been ongoing since 2013. It is important to understand that the IT from 2013, when the project was launched, is no longer what we have now. So in terms of information technology, there is taking your time and taking your time. In the Phoenix file, for example, there are issues, and some Canadians have been waiting for their pay for a long time.

Yes, it is important to take its time, but the government must still be able to provide various departments with tools to act quickly, so that the chosen solution would not be outdated by the time it gets implemented.

[Karen Hogan]

I do agree with you that there is a difference between taking your time and taking too much time.

I was actually happy to see that the government had taken its time to better define users' needs and to ensure that the system would meet those needs. That was my point of reference.

The deputy minister could certainly explain in more detail why the project that began in 2013 is still underway. I think it is because systems have been added over time. At the outset, there was only the employment insurance system. Other social benefits were then added to the system, as the department realized it had to define users' needs better before moving forward and using a system already on the market.

So in that sense, it was the right way to take its time.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

I understand, but the project has still been underway since 2013.

The other file I want to talk about is that of Shared Services Canada, which started to plan in 2013 the transition from a telecommunications network to a voice over Internet protocol solution, a project it plans to complete in 2026. I understand that this is a big complicated project, but I find that they are not keeping pace. We do understand that the government doesn't always have the most up–to–date means to adequately respond to citizens, unfortunately.

Another thing in your report drew my attention. You say that departmental senior officials are not sufficiently involved in the process and that they must become more engaged. In my opinion, that is the very foundation of the accountability principle.

What is lacking? Why are you saying that senior officials are not sufficiently involved?

According to a comment in response to your recommendation, the Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer will continue to handle this. I don't think that is a satisfactory response. In fact, the most senior officials are not really the ones involved in those megaprojects that take years to materialize.

[Karen Hogan]

There are several elements to your question.

Concerning the communications services project, it is clear that National Defence did not participate in the decision–making process, except at the end. In that regard, the department's senior officials who would be using the system were not involved in the process.

As for the other two procurement projects, in the case of the benefits delivery modernization, we saw that the roles and responsibilities were not well defined. It was not clearly determined when senior officials had to participate in decision-making process. So there is a deficiency in terms of governance.

As I said before—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you.

[Karen Hogan]

Can I make one final point?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

One final point, please.

[Karen Hogan]

The deputy ministers core services committee will play an important role in the future. However, because the committee was created at the end of our audit period, we haven't yet been able to assess its effectiveness.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much, Mr. Berthold.

We will now move to Mr. Fergus for five minutes.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank the Auditor General of Canada and her team, who once again did an outstanding reporting job.

The Auditor General has already answered a number of questions, so I'll ask the deputy ministers and other officials some questions.

My first question is for Mr. Glover from Shared Services Canada.

Mr. Glover, although this is outside the scope of the study on the Auditor General's report, I want to congratulate your team on the outstanding work done during the pandemic. We know that the shift to digital services is extremely challenging, especially when it's government-wide.

How has Shared Services Canada been able to change its internal operations to ensure a very strong, open, fair and transparent procurement system?

[Paul Glover]

Thank you for the question.

I'm happy to respond. The first thing I would say—and it comes to the agile principle—is that while we had a plan, we focused on the outcome. Historically, I think people got really wed to plans and budgets rather than to outcomes. One of the fundamental shifts we made is a clear understanding of what is the outcome that is required, and we focus on that.

I think the other mistake that we've historically made, as the Auditor General said, is assuming that we knew what that outcome was, and we now work very closely with the business owners to understand what is the outcome they need. Then we engage with industry to find the best way to meet that business requirement. That is part of I think the essence of that agile process. You do lots of small quick steps. If you're going to make a mistake, you learn it quickly, you learn it early and you wire it out of the process. You learn, you move forward and scale up. I think that has been a lot of what we've been trying to do.

For example, with NextGen, we don't have one vendor. We have three vendors still engaged and still competing for the government's business. We have multiple pilots going on at the same time, and before we flip the switch and go live, we're going to make sure that those systems work as this moves forward.

I think the other thing that's key in this, as the Auditor General has said, is transparency. There have been conversations about Cisco and the network. We work very closely with industry. We inherited a lot of Cisco gear when SSC was created, but moving forward we have sought opportunities where we can have open, transparent processes. We've documented—as the Auditor General has said, we need better documentation to anchor these things—what our network strategy is. We have regular sessions with industry to guide that process.

Then, in terms of oversight, we have external experts who review what we do to make sure that we are applying those principles consistently. We invite our internal auditor, who is independent and accountable to the comptroller general, to look at what we are doing. We have tried to make sure that those processes are there. For very large processes, we regularly engage the fairness monitor moving forward. It's quite comprehensive.

We've also internally strengthened our internal disclosure process. If people internal to the organization feel that there is anything inappropriate, there's a person they can speak to who is independent and confidential, so that they can raise those concerns and they can be appropriately dealt with. It is quite a large program of work, systematic and end to end.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Mr. Glover, you spoke about the next generation pay and human resources system. I would like to understand it a bit better. I must say that the existing system has had a very serious impact on my constituents.

Can you reassure public servants that your new approach, which is characterized by greater flexibility in order to accommodate a change in direction, is the best way to create a pay and human resources system?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Give a very short answer, please.

[Paul Glover]

Absolutely, Madam Chair.

The short answer is yes, we can reassure that we have learned the lessons. This project is focused with a very clear business owner in OCHRO. We are working with committees that include—

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Can you explain to the public what OCHRO means?

[Paul Glover]

It is the Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, the policy lead. I'm sorry.

We are working with the unions and with representatives of employee groups. We continue to have three world-class providers—Ceridian, Workday and SAP—which are all competing for our business every step of the way as we move forward. We are in active pilots with two of them and we have an external expert advisory committee, one of the things that was missing before.