Public Accounts Committee on May 27th, 2021

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses, and, of course, to the Auditor General and her team for the report.

From an initial glance in reading through this, I can see that there's of course work that can be done to improve the processes we're talking about here today, but overall, I think the content, the spirit and the tone of this report are actually quite positive. That's notwithstanding the fact that there's work to be done and that there are challenges, but to our folks who are here from the different departments, I certainly read it as quite positive, so kudos to you.

Maybe I'll start with you, Madam Hogan, or perhaps Mr. Matthews, if he's better suited. Mr. Lawrence talked about the history of the agile procurement process. I didn't have time before this committee meeting to look in depth at what this actually entails. Can you give us a history of when this started to be adopted and whether or not it was the private sector or the public sector...? If I should go to Mr. Matthews, you can just direct me there.

[Karen Hogan]

Thank you for that question. I was going to say that perhaps the member, Mr. Lawrence, would actually be the better one to give us a history lesson on agile. I don't think I could add anything to it. Maybe Mr. Matthews can.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Okay.

[Bill Matthews]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll start.

If my colleagues want to add in, please do.

It has been around for a while, for sure. It came out of the private sector, and it is not just a procurement methodology. It is a project management methodology, but obviously procurement is a big part of any major project we'd be undertaking.

I would say that the federal government's involvement through PSPC from a procurement perspective started probably about two to three years ago, when we really started engaging our workforce in terms of what this might look like and obviously at the same time engaging in ongoing discussion with industry.

A final point for me—I made it very briefly earlier—is that agile is still evolving. People use the word all the time. They do not always mean the same thing. In getting down deeper to really understand it when you launch a project—is it agile and are we all speaking the same language?—that engagement with industry is really critical.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Yes.

[Bill Matthews]

I met with the industry association, I think just last week, and we had a really good discussion on this point. We're all in agreement that, yes, the “agile” word is getting thrown around, but we need to work together to make sure that we all understand or are speaking the same language.

Paul, I'm not sure if you want to add to that—

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I saw Mr. Flack coming in here. I know he's a Nova Scotia native, so I'll go to him just quickly. Then I have other things I want to get to.

[Graham Flack]

I'll give you a practical example of how we applied it during the COVID crisis. One of the government's commitments was to make a disability payment. We have no system that can do a one-time payment. It involved data streams from three different departments—Veterans Affairs, our own department and CRA. From the date the government said they wanted to do this to the date that cheques were in people's accounts, it was 15 weeks. That included the procurement. That included, as Mr. Lawrence indicated, elements of an off-the-shelf system, the IBM-CRM system, and then a series of one-week sprints with the contractors to make the benefit realized.

That's a practical example of agile. That was 15 weeks.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Mr. Matthews, one of the recommendations, of course, is the training. Notwithstanding the fact that this agile procurement process has been out perhaps 20 years, it seems like it's a relatively new adoption within the Government of Canada sphere. Is it fair to say that, notwithstanding there's work to be done to make sure that the public servants who are dealing with this process can be better trained, it is relatively early days for the adoption of said practices?

[Bill Matthews]

Yes, it's early days, and we can certainly do better. I think one of the key things we've done recently is work with our client departments to help give both procurement and the client folks an assessment tool: Is it a good candidate for agile? That's your first question. As Mr. Glover said, not everything is, so that's job one.

Then, I think we can do a little better in equipping our team and industry in that engagement to make sure that we properly understand each other and can properly process the feedback we get.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Ms. Hogan, I want to go to you. One of the pieces here, and one of the key elements of your report, is that when we get to critical junctures in the agile procurement process, there should be an external review to make sure that this is an appropriate decision, because it's key. As someone who has a public administration background, it's this tension between wanting to draw on expertise if it doesn't exist in-house and not necessarily wanting to have a civil service who simply turns it over all the time to consultation in the private sector.

Is this a concern that we don't have capacity in-house, or are we dealing with things that are so, so technical that it wouldn't be expected of folks or wouldn't necessarily be feasible to have this in-house?

[Karen Hogan]

I guess my answer would be that it's probably both. There's good governance over decisions made as you reach junctures, making sure that you've thought of all of the possibilities before you move to the next stage. That doesn't necessarily need to have a lot of expertise externally. There is a lot of great expertise from an IT front within the federal public service. It's about tapping into that.

I think it's having the right mixture and knowing when you need that external independent overview and when you need to tackle independent oversight outside of the department who's the lead or the procurement arm. You can accomplish it both ways.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Mr. Glover, I have about 30 or 40 seconds, so let me just quickly say on the record that I appreciated your points about agility, about some small risk, in trying to make sure that our civil service is flexible almost under that strategy of new public management.

I have about 25 seconds. You can weigh in.

[Paul Glover]

Thank you to the member for noticing.

I would like to add to the AG's response. The DM core committee, that newly established DM core committee, plays a critical role here. I happen to co-chair that committee. What we're trying to do is make sure that we check in at key points to make sure that projects, particularly multi-year, long-term projects, are on track and things are going well. If there are problems, we are helping them rather than punishing them as it moves forward. That is part of that spirit of agile. What is working? What are you learning? How do we adjust the plan moving forward?

Agile projects need agile governance, and that's part of what we're trying to do. Speaking as the co-chair of that, we're very cognizant of whether we have the expertise around the table or we have to augment it. We regularly bring in subject matter specific for the area where we feel we may have a blind spot.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you, Mr. Blois, for your graciousness and your timekeeping.

We will now go to Ms. Vignola.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Huppé, I'll quickly ask my question again.

In terms of the NextGen system, what steps will the Treasury Board Secretariat take to ensure that it works with senior departmental and agency officials, along with users of human resources, pay and management services, to identify business needs and anticipate change management requirements?

[Roch Huppé]

Thank you for the question.

I'll say a few words before turning the floor over to Ms. Poliquin.

I think that the need for engagement and consultation with key players is a very important lesson that we learned from the Phoenix project.

Recommendation 1.53 in this audit refers to this. The action plan states that the Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer is working closely with the key players to identify the needs and understand the capacity of the various systems currently under consideration. In addition, this initiative is being closely monitored by the deputy ministers core services committee, which Mr. Glover also just brought up.

We're making sure that we properly identify the needs. To that end, we're working closely with all the key players, including other organizations, other departments, unions and so on. We want to make sure that we understand the required processes and determine whether the systems can handle these different processes effectively.

Would you like to add anything to my response, Ms. Poliquin?

[Stéphanie Poliquin, Assistant Deputy Minister, People Management Systems and Processes Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat]

Yes, certainly, I would be pleased to do so.

Throughout the procurement process, including our current exploratory phase, we've consulted with the users and communities involved. Approximately 1,000 people were consulted in the first exploratory phase. This includes users, along with people from the human resources community, the compensation community, managers and senior executives.

In addition, governance has been established. There's a committee of deputy ministers, co-chaired by Deputy Minister Glover and the chief human resources officer, with representation from the departments involved in the pilot project. There's also a committee of assistant deputy ministers, co-chaired by people from Shared Services Canada and the Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, that will involve the human resources community in the development of solutions or processes. These people can support the selected vendor in the implementation of the systems.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

In your opinion, these committees are a good enough control measure to ensure that everything will run smoothly and that any issues can be resolved quickly.

[Stéphanie Poliquin]

The fact that my organization, the Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, is an integral part of the project team already constitutes a big step towards improvement, compared to the Phoenix project.

The Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer dictates the business requirements that the vendor must meet to ensure the effectiveness of the solution. We're there throughout the process. This is an agile and iterative process, and we're in the pilot stage of testing the system without touching the government employees' pay. That way, we can see whether the system works and, if necessary, make adjustments.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

Sometimes, in an organization, whether it's a private company or a public or government agency, the hierarchy creates structures where people work in silos. However, occasionally a person who isn't part of the senior hierarchy may have a good, simple and feasible idea that would save all taxpayers money.

How do we break down the siloed structures so that this person is heard, their idea is heard, and most importantly, they aren't denigrated?

[Stéphanie Poliquin]

I can start responding and then Mr. Glover can add information, if he wishes to do so.

We're conducting an extensive series of consultations throughout the public service to understand what users need and what the human resources community needs to make the system work.

Since this is an iterative process, as we learn more, we can make adjustments to meet user needs.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I'm hearing that this isn't just a consultation for the sake of consulting. This is really about listening and taking action.