Evidence of meeting #100 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was plant.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
I'm sorry. I will move on, thanks.
Commissioner DeMarco, do we have an updated forecast on the cost of the tree-planting program? Does it adjust for the issues we've talked about around losing trees, whether it's to harvesting, fires or dying out?
4:45 p.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
We are still considering whether to follow up on this audit because of the changes in circumstances around the double counting with the low carbon economy fund.
We have the same question. For example, in paragraph 1.5, we said they were going to spend up to $3.2 billion on the two billion trees, and the breakdown is set out in paragraph 1.14. There was no indication there that they were going to get tens of millions of free trees from double counting from other programs, so is this $3.2 billion to plant two billion trees or is it $3.2 billion to plant one point something billion trees? We don't know that. We also don't know whether the sequestration review—
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Who's responsible for giving us a proper estimate? This is billions of dollars of taxpayers' money on a very flawed program. Who's responsible for putting forward firm costing?
4:45 p.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
The department should have provided that. It's this committee more than it—
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
4:45 p.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
Yes. For two billion trees, it's NRCan.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Mr. Vandergrift, would you be able to provide to the committee an updated price, backed up with details that address the permanence issue?
Commissioner DeMarco, how many trees would we actually have to plant with the issues around permanence, knowing we'll lose some, to achieve two billion? Is it going to be 2.5 billion? Is it three? Do we have to settle the permanence issue first?
4:45 p.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
They committed to planting two billion. The department realizes they won't get the benefits from those two billion if most of them die.
If you wanted to have two billion survive, you'd have to factor in the survivorship rate. I don't know what it is for the first two years or whether the department can tell you that.
The commitment was to plant two billion trees.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you. I'll have to cut you off there. We will try to come back to that.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to thank you in advance for your patience, Commissioner, because I'm practising my French.
I'm going to try to ask questions in French.
According to an article in the Journal de Québec, the Quebec government is asking the federal government to review the provision in the program, which specifies that trees planted under the program can't be harvested in the long term. Basically, it's asking to allow the trees planted under the government's two billion trees program to be cut.
Do you think that if this proposed change were allowed, the program would be able to achieve its stated objectives, meaning an increase in forest cover and environmental restoration?
February 15th, 2024 / 4:50 p.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
Thank you. You're not the only one here who needs to practise French. I need to as well. I'm getting a lot of opportunities to do that now that I'm the commissioner.
I also read that newspaper article this morning. It's a new development. I don't know whether the federal government will be able to settle the matter with the Province of Quebec, and I'd like to know what the department is going to do.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
4:50 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources
We just received the letter and we're still discussing the situation with the Quebec government. I believe we agree with Quebec that the two billion trees program could help with the reforestation of land damaged by the fires. However, I think we're going to continue to discuss the program's goal, which is to respond to the need to combat climate change and generate long-term benefits by planting trees.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you.
If you had to give your opinion on whether or not this proposed change to the program should be accepted, Commissioner, what message or guidance would you give to the federal government?
4:50 p.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
You talked about settling this issue with Quebec. My role does not include giving advice on policy matters. That question is really for the department. It's up to the department to state whether or not it is comfortable with what the Province of Quebec has proposed. It's not my role.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
4:50 p.m.
Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources
Yes, we could add a few things.
It's really important to have strong partnerships with the provinces and territories. The discussion is ongoing. As previously mentioned, we've signed a number of agreements and are continuing discussions with other provinces and territories. Quebec is one of the provinces and we are continuing to work with them.
This letter is a new development for us. Minister Wilkinson asked his counterparts, in August I believe, to reach some agreements and speed up discussions. Quebec responded, and we received that response this week. We're going to continue discussions with the province and our counterparts to come up with a solution.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you.
I have a question for the Department of Natural Resources officials about Quebec's proposal. In view of the terrible impact of the forest fires in Quebec, how will the two billion trees program contribute to reforestation and forest fire prevention?
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
I'm afraid we'll have to wait for the next round for an answer on that.
Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
4:55 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Fantastic. My colleague opposite has just asked the very questions I was going to ask. Terrific.
In fact, I was curious about why an agreement with the Quebec government had not yet been reached. But some agreements were signed. That, of course, creates delays in the process. As I don't have a lot of time, can someone tell me very briefly where the discussions stand and when an agreement might be forthcoming?
4:55 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources
As my colleague mentioned, we just received the letter from Quebec. We've been co-operating closely with Quebec and continuing the discussion to find a solution. I think we share the same objectives and that we and the Quebec government need to find a solution together.
4:55 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Okay.
Has an assessment of the losses resulting from the forest fires been done, and how does the federal government intend to compensate them for the damage under its program?
4:55 p.m.
Director General, Trade, Economics and Industry Branch, Department of Natural Resources
There are a number of ways we're talking to provinces and territories about using the two billion tree funding to recover from fire. One is to replant in areas where the fire was so hot the forest won't come back naturally. Another is to help communities build firebreaks. Another would be to consider looking at things like species mix.
Some of the points that were raised earlier about diversity also count when it comes to fire, because it may be that different species are better for—