Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 15th, 2024

[Michael Vandergrift]

I think there's an important distinction between habitat protection and biodiversity, so maybe I can invite my colleagues to speak to that as well.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Just to be certain that you have the question correct, you mentioned that the barrier to diversifying the types of trees that will be planted is cost. I'm led to believe that the types of trees you're planting are the cheapest trees you can possibly get, or they're a type of tree that, in other ways, would have to be part of a different or larger project plan—maybe a provincial plan.

I want to know specifically about the comment made by Natural Resources. You said it was a financial barrier. You've obviously costed this somehow. What is the cost to ensure that the trees you plant are truly going to belong to a diversified forest?

[Monique Frison]

I think we need a point of clarification. When Deputy Minister Vandergrift was talking about habitat restoration, he was talking about the extra costs you have to put in to prepare space to restore habitat for species at risk.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Okay, sure. Add that to the number. What's the number?

[Monique Frison]

On the other hand, there are all kinds of ways we get at quality for biodiversity and for habitat generally, whether it's species at risk or not, including expert review panels, making sure they get—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Mr. DeMarco, when you were auditing this, did you review any information as to the costing the departments had done, in particular costing to programs that would result in a diversified tree-planting program.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Give a very brief response, please.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

The first we heard of the cost barrier was in response to the recommendation in paragraph 1.47, where they said, “Given that habitat restoration is significantly more expensive, additional incentives for habitat restoration work would reduce funding available”. They looked at it—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you. I appreciate that. We can come back to this.

Mr. Nater, you have the floor, but I understand you would like to lend some of your time to Mr. Stewart.

Mr. Stewart, you have the floor.

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Mr. Nater.

I was going to get back to my questions on New Brunswick.

New Brunswick is a leader in long-term modelling of forest resources. In my opinion, we're number one. I'm not a complete expert on it, but we're very good at forestry. I think the opportunity you missed here, and one of the biggest reasons you're failing, is that every province has its own forestry plan and manages it in some form or another. I'm sure they're all very different from each other. They have first nations and indigenous communities with expertise. They have companies with expertise. They have both Crown and private lands. The opportunity is there, and the expertise and labour to plant more trees are there.

I'm going to go back to my original question, and I don't care who answers it. I just want the answer, yes or no. Do you have an agreement signed with the Province of New Brunswick?

[Monique Frison]

We don't yet, although we are very far along in our conversations with New Brunswick.

You are absolutely right. One of the issues is that provinces already do a significant amount of planning, and they already have expertise. They do that as business as usual. What we're seeking is two billion trees in order to achieve all the objectives of the program. It's something incremental to business as usual. They want to consider how they're going to do it, how they're going to put it in place and how to best use those resources.

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

I appreciate that answer. I just think that when you look at that expertise, the bureaucracy is never going to go out and plant those trees. I think it's a $3-billion initiative, so the investment dollars were clearly there, rightly or wrongly so, in my opinion, to achieve this goal.

The reason you're behind is that the number one province for forestry management is New Brunswick, and it should have been your top priority to find out which trees New Brunswick wanted to plant and which trees they needed to plant and to make a deal right off the bat and then move on to the other provinces. I think you would have signed those deals much quicker.

The two billion trees project is clearly way behind schedule, and I don't know if it will ever be achieved, but it was achievable had you done it right. The investment dollars are clearly there, because $3 billion can't be just for the bureaucracy. You're talking about physically and manually, with human beings and equipment, planting trees. Trees have to be planted. They're not going to be planted by people like.... I'm not going to plant them. You're not going to plant them.

You had the expertise and the money. That's my point. That's why you're failing.

Go ahead, Mr. Nater.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Nater, you have two minutes left.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you, Chair. I'll try to make full use of my two minutes.

First of all, I note that the most successful tree-planting program at the municipal level in North America is actually in the County of Wellington, which is in my riding of Perth-Wellington. It's doing exceptional work and has been doing that for two decades now. I wanted to put up a quick plug there and waste more of my time, which is now drifting away.

Deputy Minister Vandergrift, when did NRCan become aware of the government's plan to plant two billion trees? On what date did you become aware of that commitment?

[Michael Vandergrift]

I don't have it. I do not know of a specific date. I'll invite my colleagues, if they are able, to provide an answer to that.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Could the department follow up and let us know on what date you became aware of it? Was it when it was announced publicly, or did you became aware in advance of that commitment?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Vandergrift, I just want to get a head nod. Is that possible?

[Glenn Hargrove]

Yes.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

I appreciate that.

I want to switch to the commissioner, Mr. DeMarco.

In paragraph 1.37, you discuss the “[p]ermanence of planted trees” and how as of yet there's no commitment to keep those trees in the ground.

I'm curious about your suggestion that it would become carbon negative by about 2030, give or take. When you were doing your modelling and were looking at that, what considerations did you take into account about the permanence of the trees that have been planted thus far and that will be planted in the future and about whether they stay in the ground or don't stay in the ground?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

That concern of ours is illustrated in recommendation 1.43, where we recommended that they have “a long-term monitoring plan to assess the health and survival of the trees planted through the program” and “targets for the program's performance indicators” relating to that.

These benefits—carbon sequestration, biodiversity and human health—will accrue only if a good number of the trees survive. That was a significant weakness we identified. We've modelled based on the tree planting being successful, but it's not a given that it will be successful, especially with the increased incidence of forest fires.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm afraid that is the time, Mr. Nater. Mr. Stewart is down again, so maybe he'll give you some time back.

Ms. Yip, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thanks to all of you for coming today. The environment is definitely very important.

Rather than having annual calls for proposals, in December 2022 the department changed to multi-year project proposals. Is this helping to reduce the gaps in delivery? Will the department be able to meet the planting deadlines?

That's for Mr. Vandergrift.

[Michael Vandergrift]

I'm going to pass it to my colleagues in the room.

[Monique Frison]

Yes, absolutely. We launched an ongoing call for proposals, which means that we get proposals at any time from anyone who wants to put in a proposal for planting. It allows us to be a bit more nimble and faster in responding to proponents. Having calls for proposals at defined times was creating a false cycle that didn't allow us to be as nimble as we wanted to be.

Also, it helps us to identify places where we could help connect organizations that want to plant with those who have expertise in planting, for example. We find that we are also starting to help people develop partnerships to get at part of the concern the commissioner raised around ensuring long-term survivability so that when the tree goes in the ground, it's going in the ground in a way that will help it survive. Then the survivability rates will be better.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Would that include follow-up monitoring as well?