Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 20th, 2024

[Heather Jeffrey]

I can't speak to how Canadians view the app. I can speak to the governance and the project management that was put in place.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

That's a pretty clear non-answer, but we'll move on.

There's a remarkable absence of documents, including records of basic communications that you would expect in a case like this. Did you or anyone else at the Public Health Agency of Canada destroy documents related to ArriveCAN?

[Heather Jeffrey]

I have no knowledge or evidence of documents having been destroyed. We have a policy that requires information of business value to be retained.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

You can't say that they were and you can't say that they weren't in terms of your own knowledge of documents being destroyed. Is that correct?

[Heather Jeffrey]

I can say that we found no evidence of documents having been destroyed.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

There was such a glaring absence of documentation, are you concerned that documents may have been destroyed? Do you think it's plausible that absolutely no records were kept in so many of these cases?

[Heather Jeffrey]

What I can say is that it was a time of great change at the agency as we responded to the pandemic—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

No, but people still have to talk to each other. Ma'am, I know it was an urgent situation and lots was changing, but people still have to talk to each other. People still sent emails back and forth. In times of urgency, I would expect that there would still be a lot of communication happening, yet there's such an absence of information.

Are you concerned about the destruction of documents, especially with reports alleging Minh Doan destroyed a large number of emails? I know that wasn't PHAC, but are you concerned about the destruction of documents within the Public Health Agency of Canada?

[Heather Jeffrey]

I agree with what the Auditor General has recommended, which is that documentation needs to be provided and maintained on file so that when you have change and turnover—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Ma'am, that's not really an answer to my question.

I'll quickly flip over to the Auditor General.

I'm wondering if you can confirm your previous testimony that the complete absence of documents suggests that either there was a conspicuous lack of records kept or documents were destroyed. One of those two things happened, but you weren't able to confirm which. Is that correct?

[Karen Hogan]

When documents don't exist, it's either that they never existed or that they were destroyed. In this case, we can't tell you which it was, but there is a glaring lack of documentation that should be maintained.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

I'll go back to the president.

The app went through 177 different versions, most of which weren't properly tested. You owned the app. Why weren't different versions of the app tested? Why did you not insist on proper testing of the app?

[Heather Jeffrey]

The CBSA stated in their testimony that in order to increase the speed by which the versions would be deployed they were not all tested.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

You were aware at the time that they weren't being tested. Were you okay with that?

[Heather Jeffrey]

The governance around the project management at the time looked at how the apps were being deployed, and—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm sorry. I'm looking for clarity. Madam, I have limited time and I'm looking for clear answers to clear questions.

[Heather Jeffrey]

I'm going to turn it over to my colleague, Luc Brisebois, from the border services.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

No, I want to hear from PHAC. Over 10,000 people were falsely sent into quarantine because this app was, in most cases, not properly tested. Are you comfortable with that, and did you brief the minister about the lack of testing?

[Heather Jeffrey]

It's very regrettable. We're obviously not comfortable when people are erroneously advised. In this case, when they arrived in the country they were given a green checkmark, which meant they were cleared for entry without isolation periods. There was then an error in the app that resulted in messages being sent out. The Public Health Agency wasn't informed.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm asking about the testing. Are you comfortable with the lack of testing?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Genuis, that is your time.

We turn now to Ms. Yip.

You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you for coming.

As the pandemic evolved the government continued to introduce new emergency orders in council, some of which required adjustments to the ArriveCAN application. What were some of the adjustments that PHAC had to make?

[Heather Jeffrey]

There were many adjustments throughout the course of the pandemic. There were 83 different orders in council, to be specific. One of the key ones was moving to a vaccine-differentiated border to require proof of vaccination from people entering Canada. In addition, there were requirements subsequently for testing at the border, and there was a time when the use of the app shifted from being voluntary to being mandatory. Each of the OICs was generally in place for a period of one month. Therefore, they needed to be renewed, and they needed to adapt to the different situations that took place as we had successive waves of COVID-19 and the entry of different variants.

For example, when there were new variants detected globally that we were concerned about that were variants of international concern, we were able to use the app to determine the travel history of those who had entered Canada to advise them to isolate.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Were these adjustments handled in a timely manner?

[Heather Jeffrey]

Yes, they were required to be very rapid. The entry into force of the orders in council under the Quarantine Act have a precise time. They have to be implemented exactly in line at the border with the legal force of those OICs.