Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 20th, 2024

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

That's the classic example of how the Liberals want to deflect attention away from this—

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I was trying to get clarification. I have other things going on throughout my day to support my constituents.

I am so sorry, but I don't like to be blamed by the Conservatives for just trying to get to my constituents after this sham meeting we are having right now.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Ms. Khalid, thank you.

Mr. Brock, you have the floor for four minutes, please.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Businesses and taxpayers are going through the tax process right now. One can only imagine the consequences to taxpayers and Canadian business owners for the shoddy way your agency, the CBSA and PSPC documented their affairs. There would be consequences. The CRA would be levying consequences, if not calling in the authorities to potentially charge individuals.

All I'm hearing is, “Sorry, we'll do better.” That's not good enough. Someone has to take responsibility. It's clear that you, ma'am, as a deputy minister and the president, have to assume responsibility.

You suspended nobody other than Cameron MacDonald and Mr. Utano for speaking truth to power. Ultimately, the responsibility lies with this government. Minister Hajdu, Minister Blair are all responsible for falling asleep at the wheel, and the Prime Minister is the ultimate person who's responsible.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Ms. Khalid, what's your point of order?

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I'm not really sure why we are naming ministers without having any evidence or proof and blaming them for things that they are not available for—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Ms. Khalid, this is not a point of order. There's a thing called ministerial responsibility in this country. You're well versed in it.

As to your previous point of order, you can ask your whip or your committee vice-chair where we are in the rotation. Ms. Yip asked not 15 minutes ago when we were ending it. I was going to and I told her. Your previous point of order looked like it was interrupting Mr. Brock needlessly, as does this one.

Mr. Brock, you have the floor for three minutes.

If you keep interrupting Mr. Brock, I'm going to keep adding time to him so he can collect his thoughts and begin anew.

You have three minutes, sir.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

You see, Ms. Jeffrey, I won't be silenced. I speak on behalf of Canadians, who demand the truth.

Do you agree with me that the ministers and the Prime Minister need to step up and accept responsibility for this mess? Answer yes or no.

[Heather Jeffrey]

The governance of the ArriveCAN project was managed within the public service, and as the deputy head of the Public Health Agency, I take responsibility for its management.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I'm ceding my time to my colleague, Mr. McCauley.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks.

Ms. Jeffrey, you made a comment that seemed to state that the lack of governance was because of everything going on with procuring vaccines and therapies and the issues around COVID. However, earlier, you stated twice that it was a decision to relax the governance.

Which was it? Was it, as you stated, a specific decision made to relax the governance on this, or was it something else?

[Heather Jeffrey]

Just to clarify, I did not say it was a decision to relax the governance. I said the more flexible terms of the contract with KPMG were designed to provide flexibility to the governance structure.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

This was about the entire governance, not just KPMG specifically. It was about the entire governance of the ArriveCAN process.

You said twice that there was a relaxation of the governance.

[Heather Jeffrey]

Mr. Chair, there was not a relaxation of the governance. I acknowledge that the governance was not documented or put in place from the outset of the project. However, that was rectified later as the project was implemented and more—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

You twice referenced relaxing governance. What was that in reference to?

[Heather Jeffrey]

I was speaking to the specific task that the Auditor General referenced in terms of the KPMG contract she believed should have had more precise milestones.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Who made that decision, then, to relax the governance on that specific issue?

[Heather Jeffrey]

To be clear, Mr. Chair, there was no decision to relax the governance around the ArriveCAN app. It was an oversight that was later rectified in terms of the—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

You specifically stated three times a relaxation of governance.

Who made the decision to relax that governance?

[Heather Jeffrey]

Mr. Chair, I do not believe I spoke to the relaxation of the governance.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

You twice made the statement.

[Heather Jeffrey]

Certainly, there was no decision that I'm aware of to relax the governance of the project.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

There were 177 updates to ArriveCAN. Who made the decisions to make those 177 updates? Were they driven by an order in council? Were they driven by PHAC?

[Heather Jeffrey]

The majority of the updates were driven by the changes to the order in council as a result of the need to evolve and change the border measures under the Quarantine Act, which was a result of the evolution of the virus and the public health situation inside Canada and globally.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

They were mostly driven by orders in council.