Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 21st, 2024

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much.

My final question for you is this: Are you familiar with the term “bait and switch”? This is something that was raised by the procurement ombudsman, and it is certainly prevalent in the practice of procurement. Are you familiar with that term?

[Michael Mills]

Yes, I'm familiar with the term.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Typically, it would be where a company identifies certain resources that will be working on a project and then changes them out for other resources that may not have the same level of expertise or skill.

[Michael Mills]

Mr. Chair, what I can say is that it is not uncommon to have a time gap between the time when companies have to make their submission as part of a procurement process and when a task authorization is issued for a piece of work, particularly for multi-stage IT projects. In those cases, there may be resources that are available at the time of bidding that would be willing to do the work. There can be a passage of time before you get into a later stage of a project where you need to engage those resources, and they're no longer available because there's been a length of time.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Just quickly, are you aware that in the task authorization forms, resources may be used that don't have the same level of expertise as initially identified?

[Michael Mills]

Under the procurement process and the rules, it is possible to replace a resource, but you are to replace them with someone of equal or greater skill and technical capabilities.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Yip, you have the floor for six minutes, please.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you for coming yet again.

Mr. Mills, in paragraphs 1.51 and 1.52, the Auditor General points out that PSPC did challenge CBSA when the agency indicated it wanted to pursue non-competitive processes for ArriveCAN contractors, but nothing came out of that. The CBSA ignored the advice to run a competition.

Can you elaborate a bit on that? Let's start with your role in the process. What are PSPC's responsibilities in ensuring that other departments follow proper procurement procedures?

[Michael Mills]

Thank you for the question.

Mr. Chair, maybe I'll ask Dominic Laporte to explain how it works.

[Dominic Laporte, Assistant Deputy Minister, Procurement Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services]

Basically, our department is there to work with the client, the business owner, to provide the contractual vehicle that will work and that will operationalize their requirements. In the case at hand, we basically had a supply arrangement. Task authorizations were issued against that.

Basically, it's up to the client to define their need and their requirements and for us to work with the client to make sure we find the right contracting vehicle. We also provide advice in that regard. Depending on the situation, competition is the norm. We also have to exercise that challenge role and function.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

What about ensuring that other departments follow the proper procurement procedures?

[Dominic Laporte]

If it's within our authority, then we have to work with the client and play that challenge function. It's something that we do.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Is it unusual for PSPC to offer this type of advice to other departments and agencies?

[Dominic Laporte]

In the context of the current contract, this is the type of advice that our procurement officers should be providing. They should be playing that challenge function. It's what we expect from our procurement staff.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Is it usual that when a recommendation is made, it is ignored?

[Dominic Laporte]

On that one, I'm less familiar with the department. I started in my role recently.

[Michael Mills]

Mr. Chair, what I would say is that, as the Auditor General's report points out, there isn't documentation about why the CBSA ultimately chose to pursue a non-competitive vehicle. On that issue, what we're trying to look for in the future is ensuring that there's well-documented rationale for why the choice of a particular procurement approach was pursued. We are one point of advice. There are other factors that were likely considered. We, unfortunately, don't have the documentation to understand why the decision was ultimately made.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Where would other points of advice be given?

[Michael Mills]

There's market availability, potential constraints within a department's systems so that you can use only certain firms to actually move quickly, the availability of resources, etc. There could be a number of factors.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Is this an area where you believe PSPC requires more oversight powers or authority to guide other departments away from making mistakes?

[Michael Mills]

I'm not sure if we need more oversight. We definitely need to ensure that we do have evidence and documentation that actual decisions are being made at the appropriate level, that they're being documented, and that there's proper rationale and justification for why a particular approach is taken before we proceed.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Laporte, do you have any comments on that question?

[Dominic Laporte]

I think it's something we want to work on with our staff on to make sure they have the tools to perform that challenge function.

Also, one of the initiatives we're continuing to implement is e-procurement solutions. In the past, what was happening was that you could have all sorts of documents being filed in different ways. You could have CDs, hard copies of documents or emails. Over the last few years, we've been deploying a new e-procurement solution that will basically document all of the interactions that contracting may have with suppliers and clients. That will go a long way toward addressing some of the issues of the variations in terms of the lack of records.

The documentation of all the questions being asked as part of the same electronic platform is something that we're pushing. I have to say that in close to $6 billion of contracts, we're basically using that platform. We've made great progress over the last few years on that front.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Are you increasing your supervision of the contracting?