Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 21st, 2024

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Will you undertake to provide the information to the committee?

[Dominic Laporte]

To the extent that we can provide the information, we will, for sure.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

That's an acceptable answer. We're going to register that as a yes.

Mr. Mills, can the minister—your minister—get the money back that was paid out in this crystal-clear case of contracting abuse? To be very specific, it's the money paid to GC Strategies for its work on the failed “arrive scam”.

Does the minister have the power to get that money back?

[Michael Mills]

I think I'll turn to our CFO.

[Wojo Zielonka, Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Finance Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services]

Normally—and I can speak on behalf of our department—in a situation where our department was party to a contract where we did not get services that were supposed to be delivered, we would absolutely have the right to go after a party to recover the funds.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Is this an example of an opportunity for Canadians to get some of their money back from GC Strategies?

[Wojo Zielonka]

I can't speak to the particular case.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Is that because you haven't looked, or is it because you're not sure?

[Wojo Zielonka]

I'm speaking on behalf of PSPC, where we contract services for ourselves.

In the particular case we're talking about, GC Strategies—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I have very limited time. I have 15 seconds left.

They forged the credentials that they used to win the bid. If that's not a disqualifying criterion for someone to continue to receive work, what is? Also, if it doesn't mean that we get the money back because they got it under false pretenses, what does?

Are forgery and fraud enough for the minister to get Canadians' money back, yes or no?

[Wojo Zielonka]

That is one of the questions being looked at. When that determination is made, the appropriate authorities will be involved, as my colleague Catherine Poulin has indicated.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

That is your time.

We're turning to Mr. Hardie now.

You have the floor for five minutes, sir.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I must say, off the top, that I did use the ArriveCAN app, and it worked quite well for me in going back and forth, at least across the American border anyway.

This is for PSPC.

You're sitting there. You're in the hot seat. There's obviously been an imbalance between authority and accountability. You're being held to account for a lot of things right now. Do you feel that, in the past, there's been that imbalance between your authority on the one hand and the accountability that you're having to demonstrate right now?

I'll go to Mr. Mills on this one.

[Michael Mills]

I think it speaks to the fundamental principle of accountability, which is that, in procurement, in project management and in the government generally, there's a large division of responsibilities, and there are a lot of individuals.

One of the challenges of exercising accountability in answering the questions is being able to understand everyone's role in that process and what has happened, and being able to come back and account for the activities that have happened within different departments and at different levels.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

There's a difference between giving advice and giving direction. You mentioned that you're making adjustments in the way things are done. Are we now moving more to advice and away from direction? With advice, you can follow it or not, but direction is that it has to be done a certain way. Which way are you headed right now?

[Michael Mills]

I think we're headed to a place where it's clearer advice. However, ultimately, the decisions and the authority for those decisions still rest with the departments that are required to buy goods and services to carry out their mandates.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

This is one incident where things have clearly not gone as they should have. Is this systemic? When you look across the domain that your organization is basically being held accountable for right now, are there other flags? Are there other things that you're going back and having a closer look at as a result of your experience with this one?

[Michael Mills]

Certainly, what we're reflecting on is the difficulty of IT procurement, the difficulty of IT projects, and what the best mechanisms are to bring in external help when we need external help to be able to deliver on the IT projects that the government needs.

We've seen across a range that IT projects are unique, in the sense that they are often very transformational. They are often on the leading edge, where we just do not have enough visibility and experience to be able to understand what the changes will be once we put in place these systems. They're very hard to conceive, to deliver and to achieve the results on. It's made more difficult from the procurement perspective around how we ensure that we engage the best teams to be able to work with our own people to deliver that outcome.

I think that's what we're reflecting on, ultimately. How do we deliver these complex IT projects? Are we using a balance of internal and external resources, and what's the best way to engage those external resources to that end?

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Mr. Mills, are you satisfied that you know the breakdown between what the app itself actually cost versus all of the other ingredients that went into implementing this program? There would be training. There would be other systems adjustments in a variety—a patchwork quilt, in fact—of IT systems in the public service across the country. Were you able to determine precisely what the app itself cost?

[Michael Mills]

As I think has been spoken to by the Auditor General—and she can add to this—I don't think any of us has the certainty on where the cost of the ultimate work that was undertaken in relation to ArriveCAN is. Certainly, given that lack of clarity and precision, it would be very difficult to say what is the precise portion of the expenditure that went just for app creation and development versus integration of the application with existing systems within CBSA, training people, adaptation of those systems, building accessibility, looking at other security measures with respect to systems and the interface with the application. I would not have that precision.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

GC Strategies was on the pre-qualified list. I don't know that anybody would ever approve a sole-source contract with any organization that wasn't pre-qualified. I hope you can just nod and say that it wouldn't happen.

When somebody doesn't take your advice—even your new and improved advice that is coming as a result of this experience you're having—is it flagged? Is it moved up the line, up the food chain? Are people saying, “Hold on, there's something going on here that could be trouble down the road”? Does that happen?

[Michael Mills]

I think it's really flagged if there's a feeling that they're outside the rules of procurement and that there is going to be a violation.

In this case, there is a mechanism to use non-competitive contracts. You need a justification for the use of that. Those mechanisms were used and processed, so while they did not accept our advice at the beginning, there was nothing to flag that they were outside of the rules of procurement.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. That is your time.

We'll turn now to Mr. Genuis.

You have the floor for up to five minutes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

After eight years, it's clear to me that the government contracting system in Canada is badly broken. We have officials here today responsible for the department that oversees government contracting. With “arrive scam”, we have a situation in which a tiny company, GC Strategies—

[An hon. member]

It's ArriveCAN.