Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 29th, 2024

[Mairead Lavery]

Yes, Mr. Chair, I can. There have been two Order Paper questions where all the contracts with Accenture are detailed. I'd be happy to provide them to the committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Very good. Thank you.

We'll turn now to Mr. Masse, who is joining us virtually.

You have the floor for up to six minutes, please.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Great. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

My first question is for Mr. Kennedy, I believe. It's with regard to the Phoenix pay system, which was irresponsibly activated. It's really been one of the biggest morale killers in the public service. You couldn't even pay people properly.

The comptroller general was in before, and he advised that there would be “system modifications and adjustments” to deal with the issue. Perhaps you can update us on whether that's happening. One thing I always wonder is why the paycheques of members of Parliament never get affected by the Phoenix system, whereas the general public and public servants continue to have problems that languish on.

[Monia Lahaie, Assistant Comptroller General, Financial Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat]

If I may, I'll answer this question.

Following up on what the comptroller general said last fall, we take this very seriously, and it is being addressed jointly with the Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer and PSPC to ensure that the situation is resolved as quickly as possible. There are teams working on this file, and the government recognizes that this is a huge issue we need to resolve.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

To be quite fair, we don't need it recognized, but have there been advancements? Is it better now and, if so, by how much? You're measuring that every year to eliminate this as a problem. My understanding is that there continue to be problems.

[Monia Lahaie]

I can come back to you with more information on the latest status of the file.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I'd appreciate that very much. It's a very serious issue.

Again, I think it's ironic that the paycheques of members of Parliament were never affected. I'm sure if they had had the same experience the public service has had, this would have received different treatment. That is for sure, in my opinion.

I'd like to ask about loss of public money in property. About $235 million has been attributed to losses from damage and a number of different things. Do we look at issues with buildings and so forth as damage, whether it is weather-related or person-related? Do we distinguish between those losses? Say, for example, that climate change is affecting a property in our country. Is that measured at all?

[Diane Peressini, Former Executive Director, Government Accounting Policy and Reporting, Treasury Board Secretariat]

I'll take that one.

At this point in time, we aren't identifying within the public accounts the actual reason for a loss of public property. There is just high-level information. The reason for the loss would be with the departments. Definitely there were some losses due to floods that were reported in last year's public accounts, but those are not necessarily identified at this point in time with the way they are tracked and reported for public accounts purposes.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Is there any thought about doing that? Wouldn't we, even for insurance purposes, be identifying that? It just seems odd that we wouldn't attribute it. Municipally—and I know it's more than 21 years ago that I was a city councillor—we used to at least identify destruction that was weather-related or related to a change of policy or something else. Has there ever even been a thought about doing that?

[Diane Peressini]

As I mentioned, departments would have the information that explains the nature of their losses. A lot of the government properties are self-insured, so there isn't the same regime with respect to making claims against an external insurance company. I cannot speak to what mechanics and processes are in place within departments in that regard.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I appreciate that. Here's one of the reasons why; I'll give a specific example.

We've all seen the news about stolen cars going out of the port of Montreal. CBSA has not fixed their equipment for scanning in Montreal. Two sets of scanning equipment are broken, so they moved the equipment from Windsor, Ontario. Thirty-five per cent of our daily trade comes through my riding. They moved that equipment to Montreal to deal with this.

I am wondering whether there is an assessment as to why CBSA is not fixing this and perhaps reporting back to Treasury Board or somebody else to try to get the money if they don't have the money. That is what I am getting at. It is pretty irresponsible not to fix the equipment, so either we do not have enough money or it's negligence. I just think somebody outside the department might need to look at this too.

[Diane Peressini]

It is within the responsibility of the deputy head for the management of assets within the department, so those questions would probably be better posed to CBSA so it can discuss how and why assets are in the state they are in.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Do I have any more time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have 50 seconds.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you.

I have a really quick one going back to the Phoenix pay system, if I may, because there is one other thing I want to ask about it. Have we had an assessment as to what we expect will be the overall projected cost to fix the system? Has that been done? Along with that, when we contract out again, will we include models like this to show the extra expense from contracting out versus staying in-house? Is that ever measured, or is that retained within our records so we won't do this again?

[Monia Lahaie]

As part of the approach for costing projects, the teams look at past experiences to inform the future. That's definitely an element that is considered. That would be how they go about doing that.

We don't look at it specifically right now.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

To begin our second round, we'll turn to Mr. Brock.

You have the floor for up to five minutes, please.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for their attendance.

We're almost 24 hours removed from Justin Trudeau's political embarrassment regarding the two-person firm run by Mr. David Yeo receiving almost—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm sorry, Mr. Brock. I've stopped the clock.

I have a point of order from Mrs. Shanahan.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Can we mention full names?

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Yes, in committee.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

It's okay in committee. It was an honest question.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Brock, I'll set you off from the top for five minutes. You have the floor.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

We're almost 24 hours removed from Justin Trudeau's political embarrassment that yet another two-person basement firm received $8 million in taxpayer funding. To make the matter even worse, the person also receives a paycheque from the Government of Canada. It's an absolute embarrassment.

My question is for both the Treasury Board and the Department of Finance.

Treasury Board representatives, in light of this embarrassment, has Minister Anand asked you specifically in the last 24 hours if any employees in the ministry are also working as contractors?