Public Accounts Committee on March 5th, 2024

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

That is stunning to me when the ArriveCAN app is adding to what is simply the withdrawing of investments that are so important to making sure that our frontline officers are getting the supports they need.

I want to move along to the issue of managerial procedure. Given what you're saying—for example, border stations where there are more managers than there are frontline border officers—how would you describe the current working atmosphere at the CBSA? Would you consider it toxic? Would you consider it good? What words would you use to describe the workplace culture now at the CBSA after the Conservative cuts and the Liberal refusal to restore those cuts?

[Mark Weber]

In general, I would say it's poor to toxic. That has to do with the staffing numbers, which have not gone up. That has to do with an overreliance on technology. Both of those things combined have seen our officers working really hard to do the job they signed up to do: to protect Canadians and keep things out of Canada that we don't want to come into Canada. That's why they take the job. Often the sense they get at the workplace is that they really can't do that anymore, which is disheartening and a really difficult condition for them to be working under.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

You mentioned that you have hope things may change. What advice would you give public accounts in terms of recommendations we should be making to the government to ensure that a debacle like ArriveCAN.... We've seen other debacles under the Conservatives. We saw Phoenix, which, again, the Liberals continued.

What recommendations can you make that would actually ensure that our borders are effectively invested in and that border services officers can do the terrific work they do in the most effective way possible? What things should we be recommending?

[Mark Weber]

Our borders need to be staffed. We desperately need staff. As I said, we need between 2,000 and 3,000 officers countrywide. We need to stop replacing officers with technology. That has to be there to assist officers, not replace them. An app is not going to interdict anything. I think an overreliance on technology is really embedded in the CBSA.

The former CBSA president, John Ossowski, sits on the advisory board of the Future Borders Coalition, whose main mandate is advancing technologies to largely speed up the border. There's not too much focus on security. They have been pushing for an advancement of mobile app technology since pre-COVID, in around 2018. We really need to stop thinking there's a magic technology bullet that's going to fix the situation at our borders.

I think the other thing the agency could look at is going the next decade without hiring another manager. You would likely still have too many.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Certainly, in North Portal, Saskatchewan, attrition would make a difference.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Julian.

Beginning our next round is Mr. Brock.

You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

A couple of the narratives have been circulated here in Ottawa and across Canada. One is that the ArriveCAN app saved lives. From the Prime Minister down to ministers and rank-and-file Liberal members, they've all claimed that. It has recently been debunked by some Liberal members who have a medical background, as well as the public health department. There was no empirical evidence that it saved lives.

What do you feel, sir, as the union president, with respect to some of the concerns along those lines? Do you feel, personally, that the app did in fact save lives?

[Mark Weber]

It's difficult for us to tell.

Again, our officers' job during the pandemic was largely to collect information for another agency. The app did a poor job of collecting it. It was really an uphill battle to keep the border moving and help people provide the information that was legally required of them to get through the border.

There was no way around it for us.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

In response to a question put to you by Mrs. Block about how that $60 million could have been better utilized at your agency, I think you referenced that upwards of 500 to 600 new officers could be hired. At the current pace, what is the CBSA operating at in terms of a management deficit and frontline officer deficit?

[Mark Weber]

Again, we're between 2,000 and 3,000 short countrywide. We can graduate under 600. We have one college. If they graduate the maximum number of officers per year, it's approximately 592 per year. They are not at the maximum because we don't have enough people to take from the line to train them. That's how short we are.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Another erroneous narrative from Justin Trudeau, our Prime Minister, is that he was responsible for adding thousands of new positions to the CBSA. I think it's inaccurate, and he often says it was the Harper government that slashed frontline officers.

You were asked a question when you appeared at SECU that noted, “over the last eight years the current government has added only approximately 25 frontline officers to the CBSA.” Is that correct?

[Mark Weber]

Those numbers sound about correct, yes.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

There were 25 officers. Okay.

That's why we have the porous borders. That's why we have an influx of illegal guns. That's why we have containers that are not being properly scanned. That's why we have a problem with opiates entering our country. That's why we have a problem with car thefts.

There are not enough resources to utilize the technology that exists. There is no current appetite with the current Justin Trudeau government to properly secure our borders. Is that an accurate statement, sir?

[Mark Weber]

I would say the lack of staff has made everything you've mentioned more acute, absolutely.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Do you feel the current president, Erin O'Gorman, has engaged the union in a meaningful way or has made any meaningful progress for frontline officers?

[Mark Weber]

In terms of hiring more staff, I'm not aware. She's the president of the CBSA. The budget being what it is, I believe there's a limit to how many officers can be graduated given the money available.

In terms of advancing some other issues around the toxicity in workplaces, there have been some positives. I have to remain positive and keep trying at it. I've been doing this a long time. I see hope there.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

We talked about punitive correctional measures being utilized across the board, particularly at the CBSA. We know there are two individuals who deem themselves to be whistle-blowers who used to work at the CBSA and brought forth evidence implicating people from the CBSA, including not only past president Ossowski but current president O'Gorman and Canada's chief technology officer, Minh Doan, who has now been accused of deleting up to 30,000 emails surrounding his involvement in the ArriveCAN scam. They have not been disciplined at all, yet two individuals who pointed fingers have been.

How do you feel as a union president about the measures taken by President O'Gorman and about instructing presidents and deputy ministers of the other ministries?

[Mark Weber]

It's difficult to know. We're not on the inside of the investigation.

We see this with our members all the time. Who is on leave without pay pending the outcome of an investigation? What is investigated? Who was interviewed? All of those things often seem quite arbitrary to us as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Ask a very quick question, Mr. Brock.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

On the face of this outrageous fleecing of taxpayers, did any frontline border officers get a performance bonus like management did?

[Mark Weber]

None of our members have ever received one of those.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mrs. Shanahan, you have the floor for up to five minutes, please.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

As the member of Parliament for Châteauguay—Lacolle, where I have the Lacolle border, a very busy border crossing and a number of folks in my entourage who do work at the border, I want to say to Mr. Weber how much I appreciate the work the agents perform. I can understand that it's very intense at the best of times. Of course, during the early days of the public health crisis, when really no one knew what was going on, we had to close the border and knew what that meant for workers, for the officers at the front.

Maybe you can describe briefly those first few days when the emergency order to close the border was put through. What did that look like?

[Mark Weber]

It was confusing. A lot of members would go to the news to know what they were supposed to do that day—to give you an idea of how chaotic and disorganized it was at times. There was often little direction. When travellers would show up, we weren't exactly sure what the procedure was early on, so it was difficult. I mean, pandemics happen. That was an emergency. No one knew where it was going to go. We did the best we could through it.

Once the ArriveCAN app came in, members brought concerns forward to the union, which we tried to bring to the employer. Really, there seemed to be no willingness to take our input. Had our members been consulted early on, I think a great deal of what happened would not have happened.

With what we see coming out with the investigations, had we had certain whistle-blower protections and the ability to bring information forward with some mechanism to do that, I think things would have been a little different now, but our members don't really have that.