Public Accounts Committee on March 6th, 2024

[Dominic Rochon]

You would have to ask Shared Services Canada, which is responsible for maintaining the cloud. That agency could certainly give you a more specific answer than I could. I imagine that email should normally be kept for six months.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

We asked Shared Services Canada that question, and they still haven't answered it. Oddly enough, its employees don't know either, even though that's their job.

Thank you, Mr. Rochon.

Mr. Huppé, I'd now like to come back to contracts awarded in a non‑competitively.

Let's go back in time a little bit. In the early 2000s, non‑competitive contracting represented about 1% of the total number of contracts. In 2015, that number skyrocketed to 18%. In the past few years, nearly a third of the contracts have been awarded. Is it reasonable to think that it's because there is really less competition and that we're forced to enter into contracts by mutual agreement, even when there is no pandemic, as was the case in 2023? Is that something you're monitoring?

[Roch Huppé]

Again, the responsibility lies with the contracting authority.

That said, these are indeed situations that we're monitoring. In my experience, these were questions that the deputy minister asked himself when these contracts were proactively disclosed. We were trying to determine whether awarding non‑competitive contracts could create a problem. This was one of the challenges associated with departmental monitoring of the use of such contracts.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Knowing that the use of these contracts has skyrocketed in recent years, is this something that's being done or is it a process that's being followed less and less?

[Roch Huppé]

I don't know if there's a problem. Certainly, during the pandemic, these tools were used for various reasons. I haven't done an in‑depth analysis of it, so I can't tell you if there really is a problem. However, what I can say is that, in general, we're looking for competition.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Shouldn't you have such an analysis? In terms of the proportion of contracts awarded competitively, there has never been a worse year than 2023, which is a post‑pandemic year. Shouldn't that analysis be done systematically every year?

[Roch Huppé]

We actually have it for our department. Earlier, we told you that we would send you the justifications for using this mechanism.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Isn't it your responsibility to do that for the other departments?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, your time is up.

Ms. McPherson, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks again to all of our witnesses for being here today.

Mr. Rochon, I'm going to ask you some questions. I understand that the committee heard testimony yesterday from Dany Richard, who is, of course, the president of the Association of Canadian Financial Officers. In his testimony, he said that when outside consultants and firms are hired, employees are still left to do most of the work, as those consultants come to the public service employees for their work to be verified and for their final reports to be done. This was something that the union representing CBSA officers presented on ArriveCAN, saying that they frequently were required to act as technical support.

I hear that, and I'd like you to clarify for the committee whether it is the position of the Government of Canada that we should be overpaying for consultants and contracts and then, simultaneously, underpaying the unionized workers who then also administer and verify the final products and reports? I guess perhaps you could even comment a bit on whether or not you think it's fair that the expert members of our public service unions are frequently told that there's no more money to pay their wages and then are left with the residual work of companies who have made these millions and millions of dollars in contracts.

[Dominic Rochon]

I'll revert back to referring to the directive on digital talent. I think we put it in place in April 2023. I will note that we put that in place with the input and ongoing engagement of the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada, PIPSC. If I'm not mistaken, it's the largest union in Canada, with over 70,000 members.

That being said, to answer your question specifically, we know we have a dependency. We're trying to get off that dependency. It's difficult, because as I mentioned earlier, there's a significant talent deficit in technology. That's not just with the federal public service; it's happening everywhere. We're looking for ways and putting in place tools to facilitate recruitment and retention, as well as development tools to be able to “deconflict” and make sure we don't become dependent—as it seems was the case here—on outside contracting.

I want to be clear that outside contracting is still going to be needed, but it should be clear when that is justified. The directive now puts in place guidance, so that as departments and agencies go out and seek that contract help, they're actually checking in with that justification, and there are other eyes on it to confirm that.

Just recently, we've—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I'm out of time. I hate to interrupt you.

I just want to say that the talent deficiency clearly would stem from the fact that there have been massive cuts to the public sector by both the Liberal and Conservative governments. Fixing the system after the fact is actually far more expensive than not breaking it in the first place.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Ms. McPherson.

I will turn now to Mr. Genuis.

You have the floor for five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I am very struck by the comments of my Liberal colleague regarding the lack of trust in public institutions, as if trust in public institutions could be disconnected from an evaluation of their conduct. I think public institutions have to earn trust.

The arrive scam scandal is an earth-shattering scandal. Massive—

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

When Conservative colleagues call it the “arrive scam” instead of ArriveCAN app, that impacts the public trust, which is the crux of what I was trying to get at.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Ms. Khalid, that is not a point of order. That is a term we're hearing in this committee room, but also throughout Parliament Hill.

Mr. Genuis, you have the floor for four minutes and 40 seconds. Go ahead, please.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Here's a trigger warning: My comments will use the words “arrive scam”.

Arrive scam is impacting public trust, because it's an earth-shattering scandal with massive cost overruns, rigged processes, double-dipping, disappearing records, over 10,000 Canadians incorrectly sent into quarantine, deleted emails, senior public servants accusing each other of perjury, and multiple points of conduct that are likely criminal. Yes, this is impacting public trust. The public will trust public institutions only when and to the extent that those institutions actually earn their trust.

It's pretty rich for Liberals like Ms. Khalid to talk about the need for public trust in institutions when they have presided over a massive decline in the effectiveness and the trustworthiness of public institutions and have done nothing about it.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Just wait a moment, Mr. Genuis.

Now, Ms. Khalid, you are not the next speaker, but go ahead. This is for a point of order, not a rebuttal.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I'd appreciate it if Mr. Genuis did not try to malign me. I've already been dealing with a lot of hate mail and threats in my office based on what the Conservatives have done. I would appreciate it if he didn't put another target on my back.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Ms. Khalid.

Mr. Genuis, you have three minutes and 50 seconds. It's over to you.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I would encourage Canadians who contact the offices of government members to be respectful, polite and gracious, but also to criticize in a respectful and principled way the profound failures of this government. I don't think there is anything wrong with criticizing the actions or conduct of members who merit that criticism in this arrive scam scandal.

I have a quick question for Mr. Huppé.

Clearly a lot went wrong with arrive scam. You said that we don't need new rules, and that procurement is already complex enough. I think it's too complex, actually. The problem we have is that this government builds highly complex systems that end up masking corruption or direct accountability. It seems as though it has set up a false choice: Either the system stays as it is, or we add additional rules that will make it more complex. Isn't the alternative to fix the system, so it's simpler and has clear lines of accountability, so that we can actually identify and hold accountable individuals who engage in corrupt actions?

[Roch Huppé]

We're always looking to improve on the system. I think it would be a mistake not to do that.

In this particular case, my comments were to the effect that, as the Auditor General mentioned, the rules were not followed here, so that's different. I have 30 years' experience, and building a bunch of red tape on top of processes because something bad happened is, in my mind, not the solution here. The problem is that we need to make sure that there is compliance with and respect for the rules, so that's where the actions will be.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I agree with you that making the system more complex isn't the solution. We need a system to be clear, to work and to hold people accountable for what they've done wrong, but that does mean very substantial changes, including changes in leadership.

I would like to put a fine point on this. Your department, Treasury Board, actually sends the cheques for ArriveCAN, right?

[Roch Huppé]

Sends the cheques...?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I mean, it signs the cheques and pays the expenses.