Public Accounts Committee on March 19th, 2024

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

You mentioned that communities need to apply for funding with applications. Why are some communities not applying? What are some of the barriers?

[Karen Hogan]

I think it really would depend on the community, but what we looked at was capacity and whether communities had a dedicated housing manager. A housing manager in a community would help the community manage all their housing, identify issues and have an understanding of the needs for rebuilds, repairs or mould. Without having that knowledge, you're unable to apply for programs that may be available.

I think the approach of the government of waiting for a community to put up their hand isn't proactive. Being proactive would help increase access by making communities aware of the funding programs out there and helping them navigate how complex they might be.

Just to give you an example under housing, the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation has 13 programs that indigenous communities can apply to. First you need to figure out which one you might be eligible for, but then you have to apply individually for the programs you need. That's really complex if you don't have a dedicated resource or if you're not even aware of the availability of this funding.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

How can the government be more proactive or increase the uptake in participation in these communities?

[Karen Hogan]

We talked about the fact that the department and the Crown partially agreed with one of our recommendations, and it was stemming from the approach they're taking. In my view, the approach has not kept pace with the commitments of the current government. In order to support reconciliation and self-determination, it isn't just about funding programs and providing resources. It's also about ensuring that communities create the knowledge, the capacity and the skills to take over some of the programs that are being offered by the federal government.

It's about focusing on that other side too, the need to help create the capacity and knowledge within communities. That would hopefully drive a change, but it means that the approach to all of these funding programs needs to be looked at in a holistic way and find a different way forward.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Just to switch gears here, can you explain how the first nations policing program is set up?

[Karen Hogan]

Sure. The first nations and Inuit policing program was designed in 1991 and amended slightly in 1996. The program has mainly two funding mechanisms. In tripartite agreements, the federal government will come together with the province or territory and an indigenous community to provide supplemental services to core policing services that might already be provided in the province or territory. Under that agreement, the RCMP will be the service provider and provide the policing services.

The second major agreement would be a self-administered agreement. The federal government and the provincial government come together with a community, but the funding goes to an indigenous or Inuit police service itself. It's the community itself that is providing the police service. It's a cost-sharing program, which means the federal government brings 52% of the funding to the table while the province or territory will typically bring about 48%. The way it's set up is that even if the federal government increases its funding available to these agreements, the province or territory needs to find its share in order for more money to be funnelled to communities.

That's a quick overview of how it's structured.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you. That's the time.

Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you have three minutes if you need it, because the last two interventions were long.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will instead give my speaking time to my colleague Mr. Desjarlais, because he has a lot to say, and rightly so.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Very well.

Mr. Desjarlais, the last two members went a little long, so it would appear that you have six minutes. It's over to you, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to address my next series of questions in three parts, part one being the underfunding aspect that we find on page 10 of your report.

Which region consistently had the highest proportion of housing units in need of replacement and major repairs?

[Glenn Wheeler]

That was the Alberta region. In Alberta, 28% of houses were in need of major repairs and 11% were in need of replacement.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

How much did that region receive in 2022?

[Glenn Wheeler]

We have an average set out in exhibit 2.5 over the period of 2008 to 2023. In 2022-23, it received only $19 million.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Should the government have used correct information, not old, outdated census information from 2001, which was over two decades ago? If it had used more recent information, like the most recent census we just conducted, how much funding would the Alberta region be entitled to?

[Glenn Wheeler]

As CMHC points out and we echo in our report, if the 2021 census data had been used, the Alberta region would have received approximately $140 million over the period of 2008 to 2023.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Is it fair to say that's a major deficit for housing, on top of the existing cost that accumulates per year from additional persons, let's say, or even more repairs? We're simply speaking about past deficits when you cite $140 million. Is that correct?

[Glenn Wheeler]

If the formula had been updated, it would have been $140 million more.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Is there any other program that you know of across the federal government where an older census document, like that of 2001, is being used for formula production today?

[Glenn Wheeler]

I'm not aware of any other examples.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

This may be one of the only instances where we're using old information and old formulas, which result in a very real prejudice. Wouldn't you agree?

[Glenn Wheeler]

If the updated census had been used, as we say in the report, the amount of funding that would have flowed to first nations in Alberta would have been significantly higher.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

What do you think the impacts of not funding these projects are, from your discussions with the departments?

[Glenn Wheeler]

It's a case where in any particular region, there are houses that need to be repaired or renovated, and if there aren't sufficient funds, not all of the houses that need to be repaired or renovated are repaired or renovated.

As we point out in the report, at any point in time, about 19% of houses on reserves need to be repaired and about 6% or 6.5% should be replaced.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I'm moving on to my second topic about indigenous communities and the passive nature of the federal government.

We've heard comments from the Auditor General in relation to the passivity of the government in not having a hands-on approach to what is a really dire housing crisis across North America, most particularly in indigenous communities. When we don't have an active approach to these circumstances, in some instances smaller communities, which at times, the report suggests, have higher need, are receiving less.

Can you describe how you came to that discovery?

[Karen Hogan]

We decided to look at the smaller communities that had less than 100 housing units. We divided them between those that had self-assessed that 75% or more of their homes needed major repairs or replacement.... We found that, on average, those communities received less funding than the other communities that had self-assessed they had lesser housing need.

It isn't an equitable allocation when you're not aware of the needs across all of the communities and then you see those in most need not getting their funding. I would argue that it even goes against one of the United Nations' sustainable development goals of reaching those who are furthest away and bringing them forward first.