Public Accounts Committee on March 21st, 2024

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I agree with what you said, but that does not line up with what we heard over the last few weeks, or what we also see in the Auditor General's report. In fact, companies were forced to accept GC Strategies' subcontracts without their consent. That was the case for Botler AI, and the Department of National Defence is not at issue here.

It's difficult to imagine that all of the GC Strategies or Dalian subcontractors who worked for the Department of National Defence absolutely wanted a share of the market awarded through an intermediary like GC Strategies or Dalian. Their market share is what disappears when they are subcontractors.

If the Department of National Defence knows that there are subcontractors, and that the subcontractors are ready to do the work, there should be a way to deal directly with them. The goal is to save and to give taxpayers more for their money. We know that many of these people would have preferred to deal directly with the government.

How is it that the government cannot deal directly with these individuals and, above all, make sure that these contracts represent good value for money?

[Bill Matthews]

I agree with the fact that there is better value when we do not use subcontractors.

At the end of the day, when you look at who has the contracts and the contractual arrangements, they are companies like Dalian, Coradix, GC Strategies and others. If individuals have not applied to be part of that contracting process, it's very difficult for us to put in place a contract.

Equally, again, if we can turn them into employees, it's even better, if it works. Again, I do applaud the attempt to turn Mr. Yeo into an employee. It's a better deal for the taxpayer, but the broader model of firms that have been on contracts are body shops, and they make their money by marketing other resources. If individuals, subcontractors, have not applied to get contracts as part of that process, it's very hard for us to go around that and issue them contracts.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

I see the bells are going. I'm just going to seek unanimous consent to allow Mr. Desjarlais to have his round of questions, and then we'll end it there. I am looking for agreement to have Mr. Desjarlais finish his slot.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Chair, if I understand correctly, Blake would have his turn and then we would adjourn.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Yes.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Very good.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have two and a half minutes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to conclude on your last comment on how encouraged you are that Mr. Yeo was able to apply to the ministry, and how that is a good use of taxpayer dollars.

I actually agree with you here, Mr. Matthews, and it's actually evidenced in paragraph 1.30, page 8, of the Auditor General's report, as follows:

We performed an analysis to identify potential cost savings if the agency had reduced its reliance on external resources over time. We estimated that the average per diem cost for the ArriveCAN external resources was $1,090, whereas the average daily cost for equivalent IT positions in the Government of Canada was $675.

That includes Dalian, which was contracted to the Department of National Defence for some time.

How you're actually going to create an environment for workers to want to apply to your ministry is my question. If your intent is to reduce the vulnerability of the Department of National Defence in relation to malicious actors like Dalian, and if it's your proposal to use employment within the public service as a tool to reduce not only inefficiencies but also to reduce costs, I applaud that too, Mr. Matthews. What I don't applaud is the fact that it's not happening in your ministry.

Right now Non-Public Funds workers are on strike. They've been on strike for two months. Are you aware of this?

[Bill Matthews]

Yes, I am, Mr. Chair.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Why is it that they've been on strike for two months, asking for basic wage increases and a basic ability to continue their work and continue to support military families on bases, but have been locked out of their jobs and, even worse, have been threatened?

I've spoken to some of these workers. They've said that your ministry has hired security personnel to bully them and intimidate them.

What is your response to Non-Public Funds workers right now as they're on the picket lines? Their families are working on military bases and they're hoping for a good resolution. Why won't you make a deal and get back to the table and ensure that they can actually continue to help our armed forces?

[Bill Matthews]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

There are a couple of points here.

Non-Public Funds personnel do play a critical role in supporting our military families. They are not public servants. That bargaining process—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Who pays them?

[Bill Matthews]

Who pays them? That is Canadian Forces Morale and Welfare Services. It's a group outside the pure National Defence family, so they're not public servants.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Are you saying that it's not your obligation at all?

[Bill Matthews]

I certainly am involved, because those employees do play a critical role in services to our military members, and many—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

You're involved, but to what extent are you involved?

[Bill Matthews]

I am not the one who is offering or deciding what gets offered in terms of wages.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Who should that person be?

[Bill Matthews]

I am aware, Mr. Chair, that there was a new offer put on the table this week and I was hoping that they were back at the table.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Who is responsible for it?

[Bill Matthews]

At the end of the day, the executive of Morale and Welfare Services Non-Public Funds makes that offer.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Is that governed by the Treasury Board mandate?

[Bill Matthews]

They are probably in touch with Treasury Board in terms of consistency, but they basically are doing their own bargaining, and Non-Public Funds is a not-for-profit entity.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

You do, in fact, have an obligation to these workers, though, do you not?

[Bill Matthews]

I certainly care about the service they provide and I am also concerned about some of the things that have happened on the picket line.

You mentioned security. We do want to make sure that the interactions are peaceful and respect collective bargaining and the right to strike and protest.