Public Accounts Committee on April 3rd, 2024

[Jonathan Moor]

I just want to reiterate that I'm very disappointed that this has happened. The COVID pandemic was ongoing at the time, so some of our internal controls were not operating as effectively as they could have.

As I've said before, as the first line of defence, all 900 people with the delegation of financial signing authorities have been retrained. Everyone has undertaken 16.5 hours of training to remind them of what their responsibilities are in contracting. In addition, we have strengthened the conflicts of interest register. The conflicts of interest register covers employment, which is something Mr. Vleeming was talking about a minute ago, but it also covers procurement. We have now identified that anyone who has an interaction with procurement must talk to the procurement directorate and must log that as a potential conflict of interest. We've also strengthened our second line of defence in creating the procurement review committee, which is looking at all contracts and all TAs above $40,000.

We have done a lot already, but we have more to do to identify and address each recommendation that has been made.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Moor.

Was there political oversight with the ArriveCAN app and its procurement and additional contracts? Was there political oversight over any of this, within your purview?

[Jonathan Moor]

I'm not in a position to talk about the president talking with or informing the minister, but I am in a position to say that there was funding allocated in the second year, 2021-22. That would have gone through the supplementary estimates. In the third year, there was funding granted in budget 2022. That would have gone through the estimates and main estimates.

That's the only political oversight that I was personally involved in.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

The supplementary estimates are not specific to projects. They are for general funding for departments. Is that correct?

[Jonathan Moor]

It is the allocation of funding that has been received and approved by the Treasury Board.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Right. After the fact, individual bureaucrats—or whoever has the right to sign off on whatever contract, delegation and so on—make those decisions. Is that correct?

[Jonathan Moor]

Absolutely. It's in line with the delegation of financial signing authorities, which is approved by the minister when they take up their position.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

When the minister approves the delegation of authority, I'm sure they expect that our bureaucracy and public service have done their due diligence in putting forward a candidate who is going to receive that due diligence. Is that correct?

[Jonathan Moor]

Absolutely, and that's why we do the training and why we have asked people to redo the training. It's to remind them of what their responsibilities are.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I know I've asked you this before. The training clearly didn't work in this instance, as many millions of taxpayers' dollars were spent on something that arguably could have been done a lot more cheaply.

In terms of lessons learned, do you think there should be more ministerial oversight in how money is spent by the public service in acquiring the goods and services Canadians need?

[Jonathan Moor]

I don't think I can really answer that question. I think that's a question for the minister. However, when they set the departmental financial signing authorities, they have the ability to set them tighter, which would mean that some decisions would have to come to the minister for approval.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much.

Those are all the questions I have.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

We are turning now to Mr. Barrett. You have the floor for five minutes.

This is our last round, and I have resources for a full round.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Mr. Moor, it would be incredible, if not impossible, for Canadians to believe that the CBSA had no idea who authorized GC Strategies to ink the requirements for a $25-million contract, which then got awarded that same contract. Nobody knows.

You offered some names, and then when pressed by Mr. Brock on whether those you named were responsible, you said, “No, that's not what I'm saying.” However, you're not able or willing to tell us who was. Mr. Hayes then told you that one of those individuals wasn't even there.

It's hard to believe. In any other business or in any other environment, there would be serious repercussions. You said, sir, on ArriveCAN, “I am accountable for the failures.” These are massive failures, the likes of which have not been seen in decades in this country.

Have you offered to resign?

[Jonathan Moor]

No, I have not offered to resign, because I'm actually very proud of what we've achieved over the last six years.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

That's shameful. There's nothing to be proud of in this.

If I had time, I'd dig into the supposed cost savings, but the paper-based applications—

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

—were human costs.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mrs. Shanahan, you have a point of order.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Again, the shameful treatment of our witnesses, who are—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

She's using the same word I used.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Actually, it is about decorum in committee. It is in Standing Order 117.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

She's calling it shameful that I said “shameful”.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Chair, I call upon you to ensure the respectful treatment of the witnesses—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

She's using the same word, Chair.