Public Accounts Committee on April 3rd, 2024

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Okay.

Do you not see a problem with sitting on the board of directors of a private company that, as I understand it, offers data solution services and might seek to work for the government? Do you not consider there to be a conflict of interest or the appearance of a conflict of interest in working for a company like that?

[Darryl Vleeming]

What Pillar 9 does is provide the MLS services specifically to realtors in Alberta, so there is no chance that it would ever work for the Government of Canada.

Second, when I joined, I immediately filed a conflict of interest report that went through the proper channels. It was ultimately signed off on by our president.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

All right, so you filled out that much-touted document. Based on what we heard at the committee last week, a lot of people don't fill it out.

I have some other questions for you.

Just before becoming the chief information officer at the Canada Border Services Agency, you were the chief information officer for a company called Aurora Cannabis. Is that correct?

[Darryl Vleeming]

Yes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Was that company hacked while you were chief information officer?

[Darryl Vleeming]

Yes. It was on December 25, 2000, I believe.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

What information do you have on that?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm sorry, Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, but your time is up. There will be another round.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I now want to turn to one of the findings of the Auditor General in relation to information not being found. Finding 1.18 suggests that “financial records were not well maintained by the Canada Border Services Agency.” The Auditor General's office was “unable to determine a precise cost for the ArriveCAN application because of poor documentation and weak controls at the Canada Border Services Agency.”

Mr. Moor and Mr. Vleeming, within the ministry, who's responsible for financial records?

[Jonathan Moor]

Under the Treasury Board directive on service and digital, all employees at all levels are responsible for documenting decisions and activities. That is the responsibility of everybody who works at the CBSA. Their managers are responsible for ensuring that they meet those requirements, and the CIO is responsible for ensuring that we have an information management system to allow that to happen.

What I would say is that, during the COVID period, it was more difficult as a result of many people at headquarters having to work from home, but that's not an excuse. I think that's just the recognition that during that period it was more difficult to maintain those records.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

In your own words, you're saying that everyone in the ministry is responsible. At what point does anyone in the ministry actually raise the alarm? Why didn't you, Mr. Moor?

[Jonathan Moor]

I talked earlier about the delegation of financial signing authorities. Under the delegation, all of these decisions were made by a level below mine. I'm responsible for signing contracts that are within my own organization, and—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

But, Mr. Moor, you just said that it's everyone's responsibility—unless you're not in the ministry—to raise an alarm when they see mismanagement or bad practice. In this case, you're saying that you're not responsible because it was below your pay grade or below your authorization.

[Jonathan Moor]

I would say—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

At what point do officials such as you and others who are involved directly in ArriveCAN, who are privy to information about ArriveCAN and who have access to the contracts of ArriveCAN, actually say that this is unreasonable? Canadians can't expect this, the non-competitive contracts and contracts that have no task authorizations. Even worse, there are instances where we don't even have information as to the contractors or how much they charged.

Mr. Moor, this is serious. It's something that I can't understand.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Desjarlais, your time is virtually up. I will allow a response.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Please, Mr. Moor, why aren't you responsible?

[Jonathan Moor]

I would say it's very serious. We're taking these recommendations very seriously in our implementation.

I was not responsible, but as the CFO at that time, I was accountable. I accept that. That's why we are putting in place all these additional controls and measures.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Nater, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for joining us here this morning.

At a recent public accounts meeting, Dany Richard, president of the Association of Canadian Financial Officers, testified that between the three departments in question here, there are over 1,000 members in those departments, including five members who flagged issues with management. We understand that very few, perhaps a dozen of these financial officers, were actually involved in this procurement process.

Mr. Moor, are you concerned about this?

[Jonathan Moor]

I'm concerned about a number of the points that Mr. Richard made. I regularly communicate with him.

I want to identify what more we can do to actually improve the financial manager organization within the CBSA. Where we are in terms of the delegation of financial instruments is that the majority of control is at the manager level. We then have financial manager advisers who are engaged in the strategic financial management. They do not sign task authorizations. They do not sign invoices in section 32 and section 34 responsibilities, but if they identified wrongdoing or any issues associated with that, they would be responsible for bringing them forward to us.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Well, frankly, there were problems identified, and nothing happened. I think that's on you, sir.

I want to move on. We know that there are a number of current investigations going on in a number of venues. Most concerning, obviously, is the one by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the RCMP, the Mounties. Our concern here is that Minh Doan's emails have magically disappeared. The chief technology officer couldn't save his emails, which is rather concerning and rather perplexing. I'm sure the RCMP is very intrigued and interested by that.

I want to know this from you, Mr. Moor: What are you doing to recover those emails?

[Jonathan Moor]

That is subject to an internal investigation and potentially also an RCMP investigation. I'm not privy to either of those investigations, so I can't comment on where they are.

In terms of what we are doing to recover those emails, maybe I'll ask Mr. Vleeming to explain.

[Darryl Vleeming]

Thank you.

This is actually being run by our internal investigation as well, including the recovery side of things, to ensure that there's no conflict of interest. I'm not aware of any more information. I'm not privy to that internal investigation.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Mr. Vleeming, how easy is it to permanently delete all your emails without a trace?