Public Accounts Committee on April 4th, 2024

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

What was the date of that session?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That is your time, Mr. Desjarlais. You will have one more opportunity to ask questions.

Mr. Nijjar, can you provide an answer?

[Hartaj Nijjar]

I believe that it was in July of 2021.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

We'll turn now to Mr. Barrett. You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

We have GC Strategies, two men operating out of a basement. They made millions off Canadian taxpayers during Justin Trudeau's $60-million ArriveCAN scam, and we were told that they would subcontract the work out to people they found on Google and LinkedIn.

What we've learned today is that Antonio Utano at the Canada Border Services Agency reached out to KPMG. I also got answers to some of the questions I asked you in my first round. I asked how many employees KPMG has in Canada, and the answer is 10,000, and it has 40 offices across Canada. The senior official from the Justin Trudeau government said that if KPMG wanted to do work for the government, it had to be a subcontractor to this two-person firm.

In your experience, is it the usual practice of the government to direct KPMG, one of the largest firms in the world, to work through a middleman staffed by two people? Is this normal?

[Hartaj Nijjar]

Again, KPMG is subcontracted by organizations that are small, medium and of the same scale as KPMG in multiple different scenarios. I'm not directly aware of similar contracts the government has had with us, but I can certainly check.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

The government has said that it uses 635 middleman IT companies like GC Strategies and Dalian, and you're not sure how many companies of that size KPMG does business with.

Has KPMG been a subcontractor for Dalian or for GC Strategies on any contracts other than the ones that we've discussed today?

[Hartaj Nijjar]

No, we have not.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

You said Sheriff Abdou was the government contact for the amendments to the non-competitive contracts. Did you initiate the amendments, or did the government initiate them?

[Lydia Lee]

Sheriff Abdou was the DG on the original TA that was directed to us through the CEPS vendor of record. The amendments were always made at the Public Health Agency's request for extension.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Is it a usual practice for you to amend contracts with the government?

[Lydia Lee]

Contracts vary according to the nature of the client's circumstances and the engagement work itself. This was an unprecedented time, as I think we can all agree. The amendments were made at their request.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

The amendments were made at the government's request.

Did you speak to anyone in the government in advance of your appearance at committee today?

[Lydia Lee]

No, we did not.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

How many firms have had contracts with the Government of Canada with KPMG as a subcontractor? Are you not able to provide that answer today? Was that your previous response?

[Hartaj Nijjar]

Could you ask the question again?

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

How many firms contracted by the Government of Canada have used KPMG as a subcontractor?

[Hartaj Nijjar]

I cannot answer that today.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Can you undertake today to provide to the committee that list of contracts and the contractors by whom you were subcontracted?

[Hartaj Nijjar]

We can certainly go back and see if we have that information—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

It's a yes-or-no question. Will you undertake to provide that?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That's a yes, Mr. Barrett.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thank you very much.

You mentioned you had a discovery meeting with GC Strategies. Who was there?

[Hartaj Nijjar]

Are you referring to the July meeting?

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Were there multiple discovery meetings, sir?