Public Accounts Committee on April 9th, 2024

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you, and thank you very much for your work and your service.

That's all.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have 30 seconds, Mrs. Shanahan, if you have any other questions.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

With regard to the work that was done during the pandemic, can you speak, Ms. Foster, to other work that Amazon may or may not have performed during those early days?

[Nicole Foster]

I don't have much to add in terms of the work we did on ArriveCAN specifically.

I'll maybe just use the opportunity to promote a report that we worked on prior to the pandemic, in co-operation with the Public Policy Forum, and that looked at strategies the Government of Canada could be using to increase its recruiting and retention of digital talent. I would be happy to table copies of that report with this committee. It included considerations around upscaling current talent and how to actually recruit talent.

It's a highly competitive environment, and there are certainly structural challenges that the Government of Canada has in terms of language requirements, potentially, but also in how jobs are actually classified within the public service. There are some very tangible things that the Government of Canada could do sooner rather than later to start to address the talent gap that we see in terms of digital skills in the public service.

We'd also be really happy—and I know other companies share this desire—to help the Government of Canada through training. All of us offer quite a bit of additional free training that is available not just to Government of Canada employees but to the general public, and we'd love to work more closely with government to further that goal.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

That brings us back to Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné for two and a half minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm coming back to you, Mr. Abbott. Did you read the Auditor General's and the ombudsman's reports on ArriveCAN? Did you read both of them?

[Mike Abbott]

I've seen both reports.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

It's stated in a few places that certain resources had been billed to the government at the rate applicable to someone with up to 15 years of experience, when they didn't necessarily have that experience.

Were you aware of that?

[Mike Abbott]

I'm aware of that from within the report, having read it, yes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Under the contract GC Strategies had with the government, Cole MacDonald—the name of a resource I'm picking at random—who used to work at Lixar, billed the highest rate for an individual, $1,500 an hour. At the time the contract was signed, he had only six years of experience when 10 years of experience was required.

What do you have to say about that, Mr. Abbott?

[Mike Abbott]

I haven't seen that specifically, so I can't comment on it.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

In that case, I have a very specific question. Was it BDO Canada that charged the highest rate, or did GC Strategies do it and keep the difference?

[Mike Abbott]

I would have to go back to look to see the specifics of it and will do that.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Can you check, please?

[Mike Abbott]

Yes, of course.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

This is clearly an example of a bad practice that results in taxpayers having to fork out a lot more than they should. That's just one example. If we go through all the contracts, we'll find a number of resources that were billed to the government at a higher rate than they should have been given their years of experience. Let me be clear that we can comb through the contracts and do that painstaking work.

Ms. Foster, I have the same question for you. To your knowledge, could that have happened at Amazon Web Services? Above all, could it have happened when Dalian was awarded a contract and you ended up doing the work, although not as a subcontractor? Could that have happened at Amazon Web Services?

[Nicole Foster]

No.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

It never happened? We won't find any such occurrences if we go through the contracts. Okay.

[Nicole Foster]

No.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Not to your knowledge, okay.

I'll ask you the same thing, Mr. Weigelt.

[John Weigelt]

We don't subcontract, so it would be contracted directly with us, and we have controls in place to make sure that people have the correct qualifications.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

All right.

That brings me back to you, Mr. Abbott. If you do review the contracts and you find that BDO Canada did overbill, what will you do? Will you reimburse the government for the difference, the amount you overcharged, or does the government have to ask GC Strategies to pay it back?

[Mike Abbott]

I will comment on the broader question that was just asked as well. We will follow the contracts. We always follow the contracts and bill in accordance with the level of resource.

I really can't speak to whether GC Strategies has done that. I would have no line of sight. As the prime contractor, they would typically be the organization that you would have certainly an issue with....

For sure we'll have a look at what that earlier request was, but I just have to say that from our perspective as BDO Canada, we follow our processes in terms of billings and statements and work in the contract.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

Next up, we have Mr. Desjarlais for two and half minutes, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I do want to just summarize the seriousness of today's meeting and how important it is that Canadians get an understanding of how procurement works in Canada. One of the most shocking admissions today, I think, was by Ms. Foster and Amazon Web Services in relation to the fact that you could not be held legally liable or responsible for a contract or task authorization held by Dalian if you were in fact a customer of that company.

This is the first instance of this happening in our committee. I think this is of the utmost importance for our analysts, our study and our report to investigate, in addition to subcontractors, any customers of Dalian and GC Strategies for the production of work related to ArriveCAN. It's a serious issue that I believe requires serious accountability, considering Amazon Web Services are in the top three financial records, according to the Auditor General, at $7.9 million.

This is something that I think the government should be aware of and seized with. It is of the utmost importance that they understand that accountability mechanisms, by and large set to protect the public service and value for money, are not being met. Should a company act like Amazon look at Dalian, do no assessment of that company...which was admitted in this testimony? In addition to having no oversight of the companies they take on, with knowledge that Dalian had in fact had a responsibility to CBSA, they then agreed to continue to work as a customer, knowing that the potential for amendments to task authorizations and the cost effectiveness of those task authorizations could change, ballooning the cost.

The Auditor General makes it very clear in this report that the value for money for Canadians was not achieved, particularly by way of manipulation of the task authorization process. This is quite serious. It is one that I think will require further investigation.

Mr. Chair, I think any information that can be supplied to this committee in relation to the testimony today on the contract between Dalian and Amazon Web Services would be of great importance to this committee and our study on behalf of Canadians on value for dollar.

Would you be willing to submit the contract that you had between Dalian and your corporation, for the purpose of our study, in understanding how or what work you did on behalf of Dalian and its total? Would you be willing to submit the contract?