Public Accounts Committee on April 18th, 2024

[Andrew Hayes]

Investigations affecting our office focused on other departments like Public Services and Procurement Canada and the Treasury Board Secretariat.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Who's investigating those cases?

[Andrew Hayes]

Those cases were investigated by the Department of Public Services and Procurement. For the case involving suppliers, we conducted the investigation.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

When you perform an internal investigation, how does it work?

[Andrew Hayes]

It's like every other investigation.

We start by verifying the allegations; then we track down the necessary information; and then we end by presenting our findings and recommending measures to resolve the situation.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

You say that it's like any other investigation. I'm trying to understand how that works internally.

[Andrew Hayes]

In our office, we have a team—

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Is it human resources, for example, that manage that?

[Andrew Hayes]

It's human resources, or it could be our security section.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Do you check to make sure that the people conducting the investigation had no previous connection to the employees.

[Andrew Hayes]

Yes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I imagine there are fairly strict processes in that regard. What I wanted to know about was internal investigations.

[Andrew Hayes]

They have to be independent.

There could be a problem if there were conflicts of interest. In those cases, the managers in charge are not the investigators.

[Karen Hogan]

I'd like to add that Mr. Hayes and I decide at the beginning of an investigation on what direction it'll take and who will carry it out. We participate in that decision, and then we step aside and let the investigation proceed. We only get involved again at the end, when the highlights are updated.

It's important that I'm not involved in the investigation in case anyone challenges it.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

How can we prevent cases like this from happening again at the Office of the Auditor General?

Do you plan to introduce a new system?

[Karen Hogan]

We've put certain controls in place to detect situations like that.

I can't say more because I think it might jeopardize those measures. However, I know that it starts with information. Employees really need to be aware of our policies and their responsibilities. Then it's up to employees to let us know if they might have a conflict of interest. It's an ongoing dialogue, not just something that happens at the beginning of their employment and then once a year after that, when they're asked to reread our policies. It really needs to be a dialogue. I think it's like that across the government, and in my office.

We kind of dropped the ball. It really has to be more of a daily dialogue than what we've had in the past.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I'd like to hear you talk about that too. You just said that various departments dropped the ball in terms of double-dipping, and other things.

What would you advise the government to do to stop this from happening somewhere else?

[Karen Hogan]

I think that the Clerk of the Privy Council has started an important dialogue. He's asked all departments to establish a dialogue with their employees.

For our part, we're creating a training program that everyone in our office will have to take. It won't be a once-in-a-career occurrence, however. People will have to take it now and again later, on a regular basis. I don't know the number of times in all, but I think we need to establish an ongoing dialogue. Right now, we ask people to learn about their obligations when they join the public service, but there's no follow-up later on.

We have an annual form that everyone has to sign. We're in the process of updating it to include more questions and more checklists instead of just a link that people can follow to read our policies. We're going to encourage our employees to discuss any conflicts with their managers.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Next up is Mr. Desjarlais. You have the floor for six minutes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the Auditor General and her office for the departmental plan and for ensuring that the work of her office can continue.

I want to touch on some of the items brought forward by some of my colleagues, but before I get into that, I'll ask questions about the incident that several members have already spoken about in regard to what was reported in public about two employees.

You and Mr. Hayes spoke about some of that important work. You also described the annual process that is required for employees. Was it through that annual process and in the reporting of documents that you were made aware? Did they declare that through this process of annual review, or did your office have another tool through which you were able to review that?

[Karen Hogan]

Regarding the three employees and the two contractors we mentioned, we were not made aware through our annual process. As Andrew distinguished, there are employees who have come forward and told us about other employment opportunities that they have, and we've had a dialogue and determined that those weren't conflicts of interest. We have this well documented. That would be part of the annual process that happens. Even if your situation changes, you should be talking with your manager more regularly than that.

In these five cases, people did not disclose to us, and that's serious and calls into question ethics and value judgments. That's why we launched an investigation. We were first made aware—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

How did you find out?

[Karen Hogan]

On the first one, we were made aware of it by PSPC. For the second one, we were actually hiring an employee. I believe we reached out to PSPC then to have their security clearance transferred, as we were initiating our security process, and that's when we found out that the security clearance of the individual had been revoked.

This, for me, highlights part of the problem that needs to be addressed government-wide: There is a gap in information. There's this very siloed approach, and there was valuable information that was held by another department that mine did not know about. We came across it because we asked. Somehow, we have to fill that gap across the public service so that we not only rely on awareness and declarations by employees but we also acquire information that we use to vet and challenge what we're hearing or not hearing. It's what you're not hearing that you're more concerned about.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Exactly. Just previous to your coming here, we had the minister responsible for the Treasury Board here, and she actually confirmed for us that there was an instance of this siloing—that's the language I'm using in her defence—between Public Services and Procurement Canada and the CBSA. In your audit on ArriveCAN, you looked at, for example, the issue of PSPC saying, “Hey, CBSA, there's this big issue happening. You shouldn't be doing a non-competitive contract; maybe you should really make it a competitive contract.”

When I asked the minister about that directly, she told us it was the CBSA's decision. She said she did what was possible for her to do, and that it was the CBSA's decision at that point. Is that an example of how siloing can really fail Canadians?

[Karen Hogan]

I don't know if I would call that an example of siloing. I think that's an example of the fact that a deputy head is considered the accounting officer of their department.

We are siloed in the sense that every department has an accountable head—the deputy head—and the accounting officer makes these decisions and is responsible for them. You set up your own mechanisms to ensure that you follow policies. However, when there's a central agency like Public Services and Procurement Canada, and you're not using them and seeking out their expert advice and guidance—in this case, on procurement—you're missing out on an opportunity.

There isn't always an obligation, because whether or not you need to go to them is set by dollar thresholds .