Public Accounts Committee on April 30th, 2024

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you.

My next question is for Mr. Tupper from Public Safety Canada.

I'm going to quote something from the same passage: “Public Safety Canada officials told us the department lacked modernized information technology systems to efficiently monitor and track program spending.”

Can you explain to me how Public Safety Canada usually tracks this funding?

How do you manage the funds entrusted to you?

[Shawn Tupper]

With respect to the program, I think that at the time this particular infusion of funds came in, decisions were made jointly with the provinces and territories to allocate that money against where we thought the highest priorities were. In that instance, I think decisions were made that were intended to invest in the program to stabilize it and grow it in terms of its current footprint.

There was only a small opportunity to grow the program. That was a joint decision with the provinces and territories. It goes against what the government had identified in terms of its intent, but it was the simple challenge that we had in terms of the amount of money we had against the kind of investment we could make. We chose to stabilize the program as opposed to grow it and keep it thin and perhaps unstable across the board.

I won't defend my IT system in the department. The department, over time, has not made the investments it needs to make, and those are oftentimes expensive investments. We have simply not been able to sustain an IT system that allows us to do the kind of data analytics that we need to do. This is something that I am looking at now and trying to figure out ways so that I can find the cash to make that kind of investment. That's a department-wide challenge that I have.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you for that.

Yesterday, the Auditor General said the following:

At the moment, the RCMP does not sign the agreements. It is therefore important to ensure that the RCMP is aware of the agreements that will be reached, as well as the needs of first nations. The RCMP will then be better able to fill positions and secure the funding needed to provide equitable services. This is consistent with our findings in all areas related to services provided to indigenous communities, whether it be drinking water, housing or policing. We really have to make sure that the communities are at the negotiating table. That is essential.

My question is for the representatives of both Public Safety Canada and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

When was the last time you met to discuss this?

What role do you allow first nations and Inuit communities to play in developing your action plans?

[Shawn Tupper]

I think we can do better between the two organizations in aligning the work we do and identifying the kinds of resource demands we have.

Again, it is one of the struggles of going through these audits. I probably shouldn't say this, but I was around in a previous capacity for the last audit. It isn't a black-and-white situation. The reality for us is that we are entering into the domain of provincial jurisdiction. We do not make these decisions on our own.

The identification of resources and whatnot oftentimes is determined by the jurisdiction, which in this case is provincial or territorial, and we have to work in all jurisdictions with all of the entities that are involved. We need to do better, and certainly between our portfolios we have already taken steps, I think, to get ourselves better aligned to make sure that resource allocations are more transparent.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you.

Indeed, the exercise is not easy, given the people around the table. Thank you for your transparency under the circumstances.

Obviously, I think policing is essential and the role of the police officer needs to be valued in our society. I also recognize the importance of indigenous policing. I am one of those who think it should be considered an essential service.

I would still like to ask you a question. Some money is paid out, but it's not always spent. So I get the impression that there is a lack of funding for public safety in general in Canada.

Is any money intended for indigenous communities being spent elsewhere as a result of situations that appear more urgent and more essential to you than developing services for first nations?

[Shawn Tupper]

I would say the program, if we had an application process, would be oversubscribed. I think we have a very clear sense that there is demand out there for the program. We do not have sufficient funding to cover all of the need in indigenous communities across the land—there's no question about that.

Part of the challenge of the “essential services” legislation is to try to demark how we evaluate and how we can determine what that demand is. It is a recognition that it is essential that the policing shouldn't be a grant and contribution program that is fluid over time as governments make decisions about where to put money or not. The whole point and intent of that legislation would be to establish that platform and create a secure planning cycle.

I think the other challenges that we have that the report identifies are the need to do longer planning cycles, to not have automatic renewals, to not wait too long to re-engage with communities, to make sure that we understand the needs that are there. Those are things that we will build into the program as we move forward, and our part is very much driven by the work we're doing with indigenous communities on the legislation.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I now give the floor to Mr. Desjarlais.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for six minutes, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to preface my comments today with a very important note for any survivors of sexual assault in Canada who may be watching this, or for those who may be interested in topics related to the RCMP and the participation or acknowledgement of sexual assault across Canada, particularly of indigenous women. This is a content warning for much of my discussion here. I want to be very clear about that and support women and gender-diverse folks who are survivors of this. I will be prefacing my further questions in relation to sexual assault within the RCMP, and by the RCMP, with these comments.

I want to acknowledge, as well, that there is an immense history in Canada that pertains to the RCMP's involvement and direct participation in the project of colonizing North America.

I was privy to the Pope coming to Canada to apologize for the church's role in the horrific residential school system. My family received a note from then Prime Minister Stephen Harper for the horrendous treatment of children and an apology from the Government of Canada to survivors, including my grandmother.

One of the worst things Canada has ever done and a sin we have to acknowledge continuously—because it hasn't changed—is this system and how it continues to affect indigenous people today. The fact that the British Isles could send so many to Canada to attack so many other, innocent people.... There was the attack and humiliation of men—my ancestors—when the North-West Mounted Police was created. The toppling of the Red River Métis settlement and the destruction of Batoche were core mandates of the North-West Mounted Police. This is the founding mandate of the RCMP today.

This founding mandate was carried on continuously. Institutions like the church and the government continued to take children. After our men were beaten and wounded, the children were attacked. Finally, they took women, the life-givers and water-bearers of our nation. Today the RCMP is still conducting...participating in violence against women.

Mr. Larkin, you speak about respect for indigenous people. It's continuously in the news, though. You don't have to look that far. RCMP are continuously engaged in this violence.

I'm going to quote from the Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls Inquiry's final report, which was blunt in its assessment.

It said:

The RCMP have not proven to Canada that they are capable of holding themselves to account.

This is a policy failure of a government that is not interested in holding those who perpetrate violence accountable. The RCMP, by indigenous persons' own claims, can't hold themselves accountable. Who are we to turn to when we pick up the phone and realize the very same perpetrators of sexual violence are the RCMP? You can imagine my tremendous frustration with this. If it was your family—your mother, grandmother or daughter—imagine the pain. Imagine it for a moment, Mr. Larkin. Imagine the pain of an auntie having to succumb to this kind of violence.

As someone who hasn't particularly been involved in this work, I can't speak about this extreme violence. However, I know my colleague Leah Gazan, the member of Parliament for Winnipeg Centre, has done a tremendous job attempting to hold Canada accountable for the crisis that is murdered and missing indigenous women and girls.

She spoke to me of a case stemming from Manitoba. You may be familiar with it. It was in relation to RCMP Constable Kevin Theriault.

CBC said:

[He] took an intoxicated Aboriginal woman he had arrested out of a cell and drove her to his northern Manitoba home to “pursue a personal relationship,” according to RCMP adjudication documents obtained by CBC News.

Fellow officers teased and goaded him by text message to see “how far he would go,” and another constable observed flirting between Theriault and the woman, saying he “jokingly made a comment about having a threesome” with her.

The senior officer in the detachment first said “it wasn't right” for Theriault to take the woman out of custody but finally said: “You arrested her, you can do whatever the f--k you want to do.”

This isn't just today.

Maria Campbell was a remarkable Métis person and a survivor of the violence she had to witness during the clearing of the plains, which the RCMP participated in. She recounted a story in her book, Halfbreed, of being raped by an RCMP member at the age of 14. He dragged her into a bedroom of her own home. One of the RCMP members had come to hassle the family about alleged poaching.

The RCMP's sexual abuse of indigenous women and girls is an open secret that is well known by indigenous communities. This is a tremendous pain in our country today.

The Auditor General's report suggests, but I would say it needs to go much further.... It needs to recount, Madam Auditor General, the true history of the project that is the RCMP's core mandate. It must go beyond training. It must focus on accountability. It must focus on individuals being held to true account. Supervisors and commissioners cannot continue to be complacent in this violence.

Just recently, three days ago, there was the case of an RCMP officer being charged with child sexual exploitation in St. Paul, Alberta. When is this going to end?

When will the RCMP take seriously its history, account for that history and be accountable for the many lives it's affected and continues to affect today?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Desjarlais.

We're beginning our next round.

Mr. Viersen, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here today, and thank the Auditor General for her report. We've been seeing a lot of her lately, and I appreciate all the work she does.

Over the last few years, we've seen a fairly dramatic increase in online child exploitation. Basically, any child with a connection to the Internet is at risk. In particular, we've had several boys who were exploited through video game chats commit suicide.

A year ago, I had the opportunity to visit the RCMP's national child exploitation crime centre. I got to see the work that Mr. Larkin does there.

Mr. Larkin, what's your department seeing? Are there any trends around this?

How does this interface with some of the child exploitation happening around first nations communities, but also with what's happening from Canada to other countries around the world?

I recently had the ambassador from the Philippines complimenting Canada on our co-operation with the Philippines, but she was also frustrated that we don't necessarily have the same presence in the Philippines, like some other countries do. We have one RCMP officer stationed in the Philippines, while other countries have a significant number of police officers because the exploitation happens across the border. Canada is the number four source country of perpetrators coming to the Philippines or exploiting from Canada to the Philippines.

I'm just wondering if we could get a picture of what's going on with that from your perspective.

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

In relation to online child sexploitation impacting first nations communities—and anywhere in Canada, for that matter—we recognize that those who prey on the most vulnerable do not discriminate. Our first nations communities are susceptible. A significant amount of work needs to be done in our first nations communities across the country, not only from an investigative perspective, but from a proactive, prevention and education perspective. There is significant work happening.

The national child exploitation crime centre is celebrating its 20th anniversary. It's an opportune time to look at the way we deploy and the work that we're doing in partnership with witness protection, looking at enhancing and strengthening that program.

However, specifically speaking to the Philippines, as you are aware and have mentioned, we have deployed one officer to that country, who is a child exploitation subject matter expert. We actually just had a team from national headquarters from the program area travel to the Philippines to meet with Philippine authorities, police officials and government officials, as well as our member there, to do a review and evaluation of the program to see whether or not it requires enhancement.

We currently touch 73 countries around the world from a liaison perspective. Obviously, this is recognizing some of the different challenges.

The program review in relation to the Philippines to see whether or not we will adjust and/or redeploy or strengthen our commitment there is not complete. That is certainly on the radar as we continue to look at how we strengthen this.

Child exploitation remains a significant challenge and issue in our country that requires a significant amount of work to be done.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

In terms of human trafficking victims in this country, stakeholders have told me that around 4% of our population is indigenous, and yet of the victims they're helping—these are the ones we know of—about 50% are indigenous. Is there a particular focus from the RCMP on how we help these victims and how we bring these cases to resolution? What's your perspective on that?

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

The national child exploitation centre does have a complete victim identification centre. Those officers are largely focused on identifying victims of the crime and tracking and locating those individuals. Clearly, it's an area that needs to be strengthened. Quite frankly, when you look at the under-reported crime of child exploitation as well as the volume, it becomes a significant challenge. There's much work to be done in that particular piece.

I'll ask Assistant Commissioner Warren Brown to talk about several initiatives that are specific to indigenous communities.

[Warren Brown]

A recent example I can provide is our engagement with some of the national indigenous organizations, including Inuit communities. Many of the Inuit communities have young adults and children who come down to larger hubs, some hubs that we do not police that have different police of jurisdiction, where there is concern about a high or disproportionate rate of human trafficking.

As Deputy Larkin mentioned, it's under-reported. The challenge is to identify and build trust and to strengthen those relationships to ensure that a higher accuracy of reporting is brought to our attention. From a national lens, we're responsible for policing 13 divisions in Canada. When we police 22% of the population, it's important that we engage with and improve partnerships with some of the bigger police organizations. That's an endeavour before us.

I appreciate your concern. It's certainly something that we're trying to get a better stance on.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Khalid, you have five minutes, please.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for appearing today.

Thank you, Auditor General, for this very important and timely report. It is important to highlight these issues.

I'll start with you, Deputy Minister Tupper, and ask you to talk a bit about how you manage the relationships between the RCMP and their contract policing with first nations in the various negotiation agreements that you enter, and then with the federal government in terms of providing resources.

[Shawn Tupper]

I think the basis of the relationship we have starts with our discussions at the federal, provincial and territorial level. We have a table that we construct with the provinces and territories that kind of leads the way in terms of our overall negotiations for the contract and for all the other aspects of the interactions that occur across orders of government in this regard. We have a very well-formulated, mature table that has a fairly steady cycle in which we engage on these issues. Indeed, I think in May I have my next round, where we will engage on these very issues. The Auditor General's report is a subject that will allow us to confront the need for better reporting in particular.

Part of our struggle is that provinces don't report to the federal government. We need to find a better collaborative way to pull together the data that is in the hands of provinces and territories and that is certainly in the hands of my department and in the hands of the RCMP. We need to construct, I think, the proper platforms that allow us to do the proper analytics that have been short over the lifetime of this program.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

Can you outline for us which provinces you're having difficulty bringing to the table?

[Shawn Tupper]

I would say that we don't have any difficulty bringing provinces to the table. The provinces and territories confront the same challenge we do at the federal government level—fiscal frameworks and the realities of priority-setting across an agenda at a provincial or territorial level. It's a bit cyclical in the sense that some provinces are more active in a given year than others simply by the choices they make. That is why we sometimes end up with money being left on the table. Provinces make choices about how they handle the priorities that they expend resources on.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

For this meeting that's happening in May, do you have a list of priorities you will be bringing in terms of building those partnerships?

[Shawn Tupper]

The number one priority will be to follow up on the recommendations that have been articulated for us, to present our management action plan and to see if we can scope in provincial activities to that action plan to make it more complete. I think first and foremost, frankly, it's to build the datasets that we simply need to do better on. We do want to talk to them about the essential service legislation. We want to make sure that we sustain their general approval or agreement in terms of the direction we're heading. They are concerned that we are striking legislation, or potentially will be striking legislation, in an area of exclusive provincial domain, so we need to make sure that, as we articulate that legislation, it is done in a way that applies to the federal government and does not impose on the jurisdiction of the provinces and territories.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Speaking of provincial jurisdiction, I know that the RCMP, through contract policing, does significant work. In fact, the majority of their resources ends up going into contract policing, as opposed to federal policing, which is also part of their mandate. How do you support the RCMP and manage their work and how they interact with communities?

[Shawn Tupper]

Operationally, I don't support them at all, because they have a very strict and strong independence in terms of operational matters, in terms of how they conduct their business. A lot of their priorities that are at the provincial or territorial level are struck by the provincial and territorial governments, and that is between them.

Where I need to have a relationship with the RCMP on the contract is with respect to how the contract works and to the ability...when provinces identify a need for additional resources. They write to the RCMP and to us and identify those building blocks. There is a constant interaction of the three parties, but operationally that is left between the province and the RCMP.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

Deputy Commissioner Larkin, how do you frame the relationship with first nations communities and also with Public Safety? How do you measure success? What is your measure of success as you operate in these communities?