Public Accounts Committee on May 9th, 2024

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I appreciate Mr. Schmale's comments. I find him to be a very honourable member as well. We've worked together on these issues many times.

I'm wondering whether the last portion of what he mentioned was a proposal for a tool that we would be able to have. Maybe I can get clarification. Can we actually summon the minister? If so, I would love to summon her. Let's summon her right now.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Nater, you're the in-house expert here. Since this is a political matter, I will refer to you before we come back to the clerk and the House administration.

You have the floor, please.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Sure. Our clerk can certainly correct my terminology if I get anything wrong.

I believe we as a committee could table a report in the House that would ask the House to compel the attendance, but “compel” might be the wrong word. It would require the attendance of the minister at this committee. That would be one possibility.

I don't want to speak for my colleagues, but I think that's something we'd obviously support. I mean, for a minister to decline to be held accountable to committees is I think unfortunate.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That's something to consider.

Ms. Gaudreau, do you have any comments?

Mr. Desjarlais, I'll come back to you.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I am going to talk about my experience on the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs and the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

Mr. Chair, we must not forget that the committees are masters of their own proceedings, meaning that, as long as a majority of committee members agree, they can choose to summon witnesses to explain what they did and to be held accountable. The Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs has often asked ministers to appear.

It is important for the Standing Committee on Public Accounts to get information on a specific situation, which is the one we are talking about, especially since it is in the Auditor General's report. The committee wants to pass a motion for the minister to appear. I think it is a very legitimate request and it should be done.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I do appreciate Ms. Gaudreau's and Mr. Nater's and Mr. Schmale's comments today in support of options to look at this.

Listen, I'm fully co-operative in our approach to find an option on how we get the minister to be accountable to this audit. Maybe it's as easy as her own members—I'd actually invite the member of the Liberal Party in this regard—speaking to her about the importance of this. I understand that there could be a loss of communication. Maybe she doesn't understand the urgency quite yet of the fact that the Auditor General has now had many reports. We need to explore all tools if we are truly masters of our committee.

I think Ms. Gaudreau is right, Chair, that we should be able to at least compel her in some way, shape or form, unless there's advice from you that we can't.

To your point, Mr. Nater, I want to explore that. I think with your support and with Mr. Schmale's support we could look at options in the House of Commons to do something like that. Of course, we would stand in full support of that kind of recommendation to the House that could compel our committee to summon her.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'll read out the section that will help focus attention, and then I'll turn to Mr. Schmale, who I believe wanted to address this.

This is from page 892:

If a Member of the House [of Commons] refuses an invitation to appear before a standing committee and the committee decides that such an appearance is necessary, it may so report to the House, and it will be up to the House to decide what measures should be taken.

That is the path the committee has to not compel the witness but to begin the process to have the House of Commons decide what steps will be taken.

Mr. Schmale, go ahead, please.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

I just want to build on this conversation as well, more for our counterparts around the table who may be new to this developing situation.

I bring to the attention of Mr. Desjarlais that if he remembers back during the discussions on Bill C-53, the Métis self-governing act we were discussing just before Christmas and into January, the agreement at that time was that for the supplementary estimates (B), which is months ago now, if we got Bill C-53 through committee, at that point the ministers would gladly appear to answer questions of the committee.

We have had no ministers to date. We were told just a few weeks ago that we're still waiting on a date that works in their schedules.

I'm just painting the picture for everybody in this room that if we take it to the next step of voting on a particular motion, this is an ongoing problem—not just here, but at INAN—in a department that is swelling with bureaucracy, but yet the results are going down the drain. There are indigenous lives at stake here. Housing has horrible conditions. Again, there are ongoing challenges with drinking water. People don't have drinking water that's safe. There's Jordan's principle and the endless concerns about that.

I could go on and on, but as my friend from the Bloc said, if there's a path forward to have a motion, let's get to a vote. I just wanted to inform the committee or those who might not be aware of what's going on at the INAN committee that there are serious issues with getting Minister Hajdu to appear.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

Ms. Bradford, you have the floor, please.

I just noticed you, Mr. Desjarlais, but I saw Ms. Bradford first. Please go ahead.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Mr. Chair, can you share with us the reason the minister gave to you that she couldn't come to our committee?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Yes. It was the clerk who sent it to me. The clerk is occupied, so I'll try to find it.

[The Clerk]

I will read it.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Okay. The clerk will read it.

[The Clerk]

It reads, “The ISC minister will be appearing at INAN on June 3 on the subject of the OAG report on indigenous housing. As such, Minister Hajdu's office has indicated that she's declining this invitation to appear at PACP on the same topic”.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

As I understand it, then, she is appearing at INAN at the same time we were wanting her to appear here.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

That was for the estimates.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Schmale, I'll hear from you afterward.

Go ahead, Ms. Bradford.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

She's appearing at INAN at the exact time, so she can't be here. There's a valid reason, clearly. She can't be two places at once.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

We didn't give her a date. We asked for a date.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Okay.

It would seem that, as often happens with committees, there's a duplication. We ask the same witnesses to appear at multiple committees on the same topic. If we're talking about using and misusing resources effectively, then here would seem to be another example if she's being asked to appear on the same topic at more than one committee.

In this case, yes, it does seem to be a conflict of time as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Desjarlais, it seems that you and I are now being put together for misusing resources.

You have the floor, and then we'll have Mr. Schmale.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I do see the potential irony in that, but I'm not calling for an extra meeting, you might see. I'm calling for the regular resources for the minister to attend.

Ms. Bradford, to your point, yes, they're going to INAN, as they should go to INAN. It's the committee for indigenous and northern affairs. But this is the Auditor General's committee. She tabled a report on here. You are responsible, Ms. Bradford, for investigating, and properly investigating, the outcome of the Auditor General's reports. That's the mandate of this committee.

Unless I mistakenly heard you, I don't think you intended to imply that we should ignore the Auditor General's report and ignore our mandate in this committee to pursue the core objective and mandate of this committee. It can be seen or perceived by your comments that you wish to ignore this very real and legitimate concern on behalf of first nations or the mandate of this committee. Which is it?

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Am I allowed to respond?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I can put you on the list, but I had Mr. Schmale first.

Mr. Desjarlais, I will ask you to put your hand down. You're welcome to put it back up. Thank you.

I will go to Mr. Schmale and then to my little list, which Ms. Bradford is back on.

Go ahead, Mr. Schmale.