Public Accounts Committee on May 14th, 2024

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Why was the CFO branch of CBSA not made aware of PSPC's recommendation to execute a non-competitive process with the second of GC Strategies' contracts?

[Erin O'Gorman]

As I've testified, for some reason CBSA had a system whereby, if the contract was being led by PSPC, the IT group would deal directly with PSPC. That's not a best practice. That has stopped since I have come to the CBSA. Everything goes through our procurement group. They do a challenge function, and they interface with PSPC.

I don't know if it was like that because it was during the pandemic and people were moving fast or because that's how it was set up, but that's not how it happens now.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Okay. Thank you.

Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you are next for two and a half minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Ailapperuma, I will continue in the same vein as my earlier questions.

During the entire saga of the contracts awarded to GC Strategies, Mr. Utano had a number of exchanges with the Department of Public Works and Government Services on the nature of the contract that was to be awarded to GC Strategies. You were copied on a number of those emails, which I have in front of me, dated March 27 to 30, 2020. In them, Ms. Durigan from the department questions the use of the national security exception for the contract.

When you learned about this through the emails, did you think at any point that there might have been a problem with the way in which a non-competitive contract worth millions of dollars was awarded for a three-year period using the national security exception? Did you ever wonder about that?

[Chulaka Ailapperuma]

I did not have any reason to think there was anything wrong happening. My role, again, was to lead the technical development of ArriveCAN; there was a team responsible for procurement, and I was cc'd on those emails for information purposes only.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

You're telling me that an acting director of the CBSA disagrees with the findings of the Auditor General that these contracts were awarded in an extremely flawed manner that should never have been allowed. You did not see a problem at that time and you still do not see a problem. Meanwhile, you are acting director of the CBSA. Is that a fair summary?

[Chulaka Ailapperuma]

At the time, I was a manager reporting to Mr. Utano, who was the executive director. I did not have any procurement-related or contracting-related functions at the time.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Okay. However, you do have such duties now, since you are acting director. That said, even managers should ask questions. Besides, when a manager is promoted to director, it usually means they're assumed to have a certain level of judgment. They should be able to say that there's a problem and that public funds should not be wasted like this. They should be able to sound the alarm.

I feel it is my duty to remind you of something. Since 2003, your salary at the CBSA has been paid by taxpayers. The money that you squandered by awarding these multi-million dollar contracts to GC Strategies is taxpayers' money. It's not your money, it's not GC Strategies' money. It is taxpayers' money. You tell me that you were a manager and that you did not have any say. Now you are acting director and you still don't seem to have any say. What you are telling us is that people couldn't care less about taxpayers' money. It's shameful.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

Next up is Mr. Desjarlais for two and a half minutes, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Who at the CBSA directed Botler and KPMG to work with GC Strategies?

[Erin O'Gorman]

My understanding, from some of the documents that I've seen, is that it was Mr. MacDonald, but I'm awaiting the outcome of an ongoing investigation, so I'm not comfortable saying that without a final assessment.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

It seems to me that internal lobbying networks have largely corrupted the CBSA in this instance. Given that there's an ongoing investigation, I believe that is, in some evidence, an admission there is at least some, or partial, truth to that fact.

Wouldn't you agree?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I'll take issue with the corruption comment. I don't know that I've seen evidence of corruption. I've seen evidence of—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I can remind you of the evidence of corruption. For example, the CBSA paid $33,222 of legal bills for Mr. Cameron MacDonald to prepare for an appearance at the OGGO committee to talk about his public service job. That's an annual salary for many Canadians. That's a lot of money, to put it in other ways. In this instance, that he would get so much money—according to a recent filing, he would get $33,000—in protection from the CBSA to try to get his story straight in some way, at an OGGO committee meeting, in addition to the fact that you've just admitted that there's an ongoing investigation.... I find issue with the fact that there could not be an instance where you can perceive corruption.

I mentioned a fact earlier, which was that we got a government document, known as appendix B, about the value of contracts between three companies—GC Strategies, Dalian and Coradix. These three companies, since 2011—pause there for a moment, because it's been going on for over a decade—have siphoned over $1 billion out of the public service into these contracts, including a profit and including a network that would have enabled these people to continue to deprive the public service and also to continue to deprive Canadian taxpayers.

That's in addition to the fact that there is this unethical relationship between members like Mr. Utano and Mr. MacDonald, who were going to big, fancy events, including a wine tasting—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Desjarlais, your time has expired, so we'll have to come back to you.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I wonder if I just can summarize my question: Is there corruption?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I would appreciate the opportunity to answer.

I sincerely take issue with the term you're using, particularly as it relates to people where there are ongoing processes.

There is a Treasury Board policy that provides for paying legal assistance for employees. That was followed. I don't believe that the lawyer is being used to get stories straight. I think people have rightfully sought legal advice. There's a provision for having that paid by the Treasury Board, and that was taken.

I want to be clear that I don't agree with your terminology.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Barrett, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I want to circle back to the number of consultants that you have reduced. You said the number was 68.

What is the total number of consultants that CBSA is using?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I'll have to come back....

Is your question in the IT?

We have a number of contracts across the organization that relate to both informatics and guard services training, so we have a lot of contracts. We have been reducing our reliance on IT contracts.

I can come back with a list that we currently have.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Let's get a full list of all the contracts. You said the number that you reduced was 68, so it would be interesting to know what that reduction is from.

It's important to note that CBSA officers are currently considering taking job action. Part of their grievance is excess management. When taxpayers are also paying for more outside consultants and more outside management, that's going to impact the travelling public and commerce in Canada.

I want to talk about Mr. Ossowski's access to documents when he was hired for a day to prepare for his committee appearance.

As the president of the CBSA, are there any documents that you don't have access to within the CBSA?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I don't think I would have access to all of the documents from my computer, but my assumption is that I could access any of our holdings.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

PricewaterhouseCoopers has historically done extensive business with the Canada Border Services Agency. Currently, you've said they're not doing any business.

Mr. Ossowski is recruited by PricewaterhouseCoopers from being the head of the Canada Border Services Agency. What better way is there to get business with the CBSA than to hire its former president, who understands its workings?

Mr. Ossowski came back to your employ to prepare for a committee appearance, but only after he'd been caught lying, so there's an integrity question about the individual.

You hired the individual, knowing that the lie has been told, and then gave him access to the information that he would have had access to. You said that, well, he was the president.

Would it not be commercially valuable to PricewaterhouseCoopers to have one of their top consultants, the former head of the CBSA, get the office door unlocked and logged on to the computer?

You said you signed his letter of offer, but, to be honest, you seem a bit laissez-faire or unconcerned about what he accessed and who he talked to. It doesn't seem to have occurred to you before today that perhaps there was a commercial interest with someone who had demonstrated dishonesty in front of a parliamentary committee.

Does that concern you?

[Erin O'Gorman]

Again, I'm going to take issue with the language around lying. Mr. Ossowski testified to the fact that he had not recalled meeting or being in a meeting where individuals from GC Strategies were on the screen.