Evidence of meeting #127 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was foundation.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Karen Hogan  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
Nicholas Swales  Principal, Office of the Auditor General
Andrew Hayes  Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
Mathieu Lequain  Principal, Office of the Auditor General

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Good morning, once again.

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 127 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person. They have the option of using Zoom as well.

Before we begin, I would like to remind members of the new guidelines surrounding the earpieces, which are not hooked up as we begin the meetings. Be sure to keep the earpiece away from the microphone. When you're not using the earpiece, be sure to place it down on the sticker pad—it's usually to your right, but it could be to your left—on the tabletop.

Please keep in mind the following preventative measures in place to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the committee is meeting to consider the 2024 reports 5 to 7 of the Auditor General of Canada.

I'd like to welcome our witnesses today.

From the Office of the Auditor General, we have Karen Hogan, Auditor General of Canada; Andrew Hayes, deputy auditor general; Sami Hannoush, principal; Mathieu Lequain, principal; and Nicholas Swales, principal.

Ms. Hogan, you'll begin with an opening statement of up to five minutes. You have the floor.

10:15 a.m.

Karen Hogan Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just so you know, because there are three reports, it will be a little longer than five minutes.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

That is never a problem. I apologize for being so precise this time. Usually, I just say you have the floor—and you do, so we will, of course, endeavour to listen to you with bated breath.

Thank you.

10:15 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

I appreciate precision around numbers, Mr. Chair, so thank you.

I am pleased to be here today to discuss the three reports that were just tabled in the House of Commons.

I first want to acknowledge that we are gathered in Ottawa on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

I will begin with our audit of professional services contracts. It looked at whether federal contracts awarded to McKinsey & Company between 2011 and 2023 complied with applicable policies and provided Canadians with value for money. These contracts spanned 20 federal organizations, including 10 Crown corporations. The total value of contracts awarded to McKinsey & Company during the period we reviewed totalled $209 million, of which about $200 million was spent.

We found that the organizations awarding the contracts showed a frequent disregard for federal contracting and procurement policies and guidance. We also found that each organization's own practices often did not demonstrate value for money. The extent of non-compliance and risk to value for money varied across organizations. For example, in 10 of the 28 contracts awarded through a competitive process, we found that bid evaluations did not include enough information to support the selection of McKinsey & Company as the winning bidder.

We also found that, when it came to non-competitive contracts, organizations often issued these without documenting the required justification for doing so. About 70% of the 97 contracts we looked at were awarded to McKinsey & Company as non-competitive contracts, and their value was approximately $118 million.

When we sampled and reviewed 33 contracts to assess results, we found in more than half that one or more issues prevented organizations from demonstrating that the contracts had delivered value for the money. This included a failure to show why a contract was necessary, no clear statement of what the contract would deliver or no confirmation that the government had received all expected deliverables.

We found that, as the central purchasing and contracting agent and subject matter expert for the Government of Canada, Public Services and Procurement Canada did not challenge organizations when awarding some contracts on their behalf. The department did not challenge the organization requesting the contracts about whether the procurement strategy used was appropriate when multiple contracts were awarded to McKinsey & Company for a similar purpose and within a short period of time.

While this audit focused on contracts awarded to McKinsey & Company, it highlights basic requirements and good practices that all federal organizations should follow when procuring professional services on behalf of the Government of Canada. Federal contracting and procurement policies exist to ensure fairness, transparency and value for Canadians, but they only work if they are followed.

I will turn now to our audit of Sustainable Development Technology Canada, which looked at whether the foundation managed public funds in accordance with the terms and conditions of contribution agreements and its legislative mandate. We also looked at Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada's oversight and administration of public funds. Between March 2017 and December 2023, the foundation approved $856 million of funding to 420 projects.

The audit found that there were significant lapses in Sustainable Development Technology Canada's governance and stewardship of public funds. Specifically, the foundation awarded $59 million to 10 projects that did not meet key requirements set out in the contribution agreements between the government and the foundation. These projects were ineligible for funding because, for example, they did not support the development or demonstration of a new technology, or the projected environmental benefits were overstated.

I am also very concerned by breakdowns in the foundation's governance.

The Canada Foundation for Sustainable Development Technology was not always following conflict‑of‑interest policies, and it failed to comply with the Canada Foundation for Sustainable Development Technology Act.

The act requires the foundation to have a group of 15 members, separate from its board of directors, to represent Canadians and appoint most of the foundation’s board. The audit determined that the foundation did not comply with the legislation because it had only two such members, instead of the required 15.

With respect to conflicts of interest, the foundation did not have an effective system to maintain its conflict-of-interest disclosures and related actions. Its own records show that, in 90 cases, conflict-of-interest policies were not followed. These 90 cases were connected to approval decisions that awarded projects nearly $76 million in funding.

Like all organizations funded by Canadian taxpayers, Sustainable Development Technology Canada has a responsibility to conduct its business in a manner that is transparent, accountable and compliant with legislation. Our findings show that when this doesn’t happen, it’s not always clear that funding decisions made on behalf of Canadian taxpayers were appropriate and justified.

Our final audit focused on combatting cybercrime. It looked at whether the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Communications Security Establishment Canada, the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission and Public Safety Canada had the capacity and capability to effectively enforce laws against cybercrime activities and protect Canadians online.

We found that these organizations have neither the capacity nor the tools to effectively fight cybercrime, as cyber-attacks grow in number and sophistication. Part of the issue is the federal government's siloed and disconnected approach. We found breakdowns in response, coordination, tracking and information sharing between and across the responsible organizations. In addition, given the links between spam and cybercrime, the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission's narrow view of its role has limited the extent to which it helps protect Canadians.

Effectively addressing cybercrime relies on incident reports going to the organizations best equipped to receive them and on those organizations acting on those reports. The current system for reporting cybercrime is confusing, and it does not meet the needs of individuals reporting these crimes.

We found that many reports were made to the wrong organizations and that those organizations did not respond to individuals or redirect the reports they received to the appropriate organization.

For example, Communications Security Establishment Canada felt that almost half of the 10,850 reports it received between 2021 and 2023 were out of its mandate because they related to individual Canadians and not to organizations. However, it did not follow up with many individuals to inform them to report their situation to another authority.

While the RCMP, Communications Security Establishment Canada and Public Safety Canada have discussed implementing a much-needed single point for Canadians to report cybercrime, this has yet to happen.

We also found that the RCMP struggled to staff its cybercrime investigative teams. We estimated that, as of January 2024, close to one-third of positions across all teams were vacant. In our view, having a plan to reduce human resource gaps across all organizations involved in fighting cybercrime, including the RCMP, is an important component of a national cybersecurity strategy.

The take-away from these reports is that when good governance is lacking the remedy isn't necessarily new processes or more people or money. It's about applying the rules that exist and having the right people with the right expertise for the job.

This completes my opening remarks.

We would be happy to answer any questions from committee members.

Thank you for your attention.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you very much, Ms. Hogan.

We appreciate your opening remarks.

Beginning our first round, the first four members will have six minutes.

Mr. Barrett, you have six minutes. Please lead us off.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

What did you find was the total amount paid to McKinsey?

10:25 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

During the period under audit, it was approximately $200 million that was spent on contracts awarded to McKinsey & Company.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Since the period of 2015 to the end of your audit period, what was the amount of money paid to McKinsey?

10:25 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

I'm going to look to Nick here, but I believe that, before 2015, it was about $8.6 million. The difference would be after that date.

Is that accurate?

10:25 a.m.

Nicholas Swales Principal, Office of the Auditor General

That's right. That's about $191 million.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

It's $191 million. Of the $200 million since Justin Trudeau's NDP-Liberal government came to power, that's the accounting of that $200 million to their preferred supplier McKinsey.

Up until today, we've been told that government payments to McKinsey were $100 million, but you've accounted for a number that's twice that amount.

Can you tell me what the total amount of non-competitive contract payments were that were made to McKinsey?

10:25 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

Why is our number almost double?

We are the first organization looking into McKinsey contracts that can bring in the Crown corporations. Prior to my audit, the comptroller general's office asked all the internal audit departments to do work, and then the procurement ombud as well did some work. Both can only do work on departments and agencies. The increase in contracts to McKinsey is from adding in the 10 Crown corporations. That's what brought it to where it's at.

There was about 71% of the contracts that were issued on a non-competitive basis. They represent $118 million of contract awards. For actual spend, I'll have to see if Nick has that number, or we might have to get back to you.

10:30 a.m.

Principal, Office of the Auditor General

Nicholas Swales

I don't have it in hand, but we can get back to you with that.

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Can you just break that down in terms of what it means to have a non-competitive contract?

Are other companies allowed to bid in those situations for the $117 million that went to McKinsey?

June 4th, 2024 / 10:30 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

I think it's important to say that the procurement rules in the federal public service encourage a competitive contract at the outset. A competitive contract should help improve the chances that you get better value for money when you bring more players to the table and that you get better services.

Non-competitive contracts, however, are allowed. There are certain exceptions. They are usually when it's a low dollar value, when only one vendor is able to provide the service, when there's a pressing need to issue a contract or finally when having a procurement process, a public one, would not be in the best interest. One of those exceptions, when it comes to departments and agencies, needs to be properly justified. What we found is that this was often not the case. It was not properly justified.

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Was the number you said 71%?

10:30 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

Yes, it was 71% of the 97 contracts. That would include contracts issued by Crown corporations as well as departments and agencies.

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Certainly 71% is not an exception; that seems like the rule. Seventy-one per cent isn't an edge case, and the other criteria that you mentioned were that the contracts be of low dollar value. We're talking about more than $100 million—$117 million, I think you said—in terms of contracts, where the Trudeau government's preferred contractor, McKinsey, benefited greatly.

I want to turn to Sustainable Development Technology Canada. We know that as the billion-dollar green slush fund. We've heard damning testimony from whistle-blowers. We heard one of the most senior officials from the ministry responsible, from the Justin Trudeau government, say, “a sponsorship-scandal level kind of giveaway”, comparing it to the Liberal government in the early 2000s and the scandals of that time.

With 90 conflicts of interest uncovered, what was the total value paid out in those cases where you found that conflict of interest was present?

10:30 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

When we looked at Sustainable Development Technology's foundation, we found really significant lapses in governance and stewardship of public funds. There were poorly managed conflicts of interest. There was $59 million awarded to contracts that we believe are ineligible.

The 90 cases that you refer to are cases where the records of the foundation indicate there was a conflict of interest, where a member of the board participated in the discussion and then voted on the awarding of a contract. This represents about $76 million. Now, it doesn't mean that the award wouldn't have happened, but you just don't know what would have happened if individuals had properly recused themselves.

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

You covered two points there: $76 million paid out in the 90 cases of conflicts of interest—

10:30 a.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Go ahead, Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné.

10:30 a.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

There's been no interpretation for at least a minute.

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Okay. I will continue to talk here. Could you let me know when you begin to hear my words in French?

10:30 a.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

The interpretation is working now, Mr. Chair.