Public Accounts Committee on June 4th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Nater. I'm afraid that is the time.

Ms. Yip, you have the floor for four minutes.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

This question is for Chief Haymond.

How does one approach risk mitigation differently when it comes to first nations housing projects?

[Chief Lance Haymond]

That's a very good question.

I think you do it in a way that recognizes that there is no perfect solution or situation. Currently, we don't have access to conventional financing through banks unless we are in a position to guarantee those loans. We need new opportunities and initiatives that take away some of the concerns and some of the risk.

Quite frankly, I struggle with this question, because I know many individuals who, all things being equal, would be approved for a mortgage if they applied for one off reserve, based on their credit strength, their credit history and their ability to repay. That same individual applying for a mortgage on reserve may not be eligible for that same mortgage because of risk, and the risk that the bank or financial institution can't come in and seize the property. Through initiatives like Yänonhchia', we're finding ways through tripartite arrangements whereby the land and the unit are still held as collateral but the relationship is between the financial institution and the individual who has the creditworthiness to be able to secure that mortgage in the first place.

It's a question of being open to taking on some risk that financial institutions won't take. That's why I'm saying the NACCA network and indigenous financial institutions play a pivotal role. They will go in and conduct business, and they will take the risk that conventional banks won't. At the end of the day, we believe in our people. Any profits that are generated through initiatives like Yänonhchia' are going to be reinvested right back into new loans and new mortgages so that more members of our community can benefit.

Yes, risk is a big issue. I'm hoping that through the work we're doing and the education of financial institutions and the government, the risk of lending for mortgages on reserve will be no greater than lending for mortgages to non-indigenous Canadians off reserve.

We deserve, and should have, the same tools and access that non-indigenous Canadians have off reserve for housing.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Is it primarily first nations-led businesses that are willing to undertake the risk?

[Chief Lance Haymond]

It's not first nation-led businesses; it's first nations-led institutions. If you are not familiar, the IFIs under the NACCA network are better known for the delivery of financial assistance that supports economic development.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Are you seeing any interest from non-indigenous institutions or organizations?

[Chief Lance Haymond]

We haven't really approached non-indigenous institutions and organizations. We stayed primarily focused on addressing our issues with the Government of Canada while utilizing and looking at the development of our own capacities and institutions nationally.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

I'm looking for direction here from the committee. The clock ticks on, regardless of how we proceed. I propose we do four slots of two and a half minutes each. I'm looking for consent from the government and the official opposition. This doesn't really impact the other two parties as much.

Would you be all right with that? We'll do four slots, take a recess and then go to the next witness.

Mr. Nater, is that okay with your side as well? Very good. Who will be your speaker?

Mr. Melillo, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

As with my first questions, I'll start in the room, and if folks online have anything to say, please jump in.

The report mentioned that the government has not had assurances that all housing units built on first nations or repaired with federal funding actually met applicable building standards. That's something I think we can all agree would not be acceptable anywhere else in the country, and it shouldn't be acceptable on first nations, but that's what was found by the Auditor General.

Out of genuine curiosity, is that perhaps a function of the challenges in getting an inspector or somebody up to a first nation to be able do that work, or is it simply neglect on the part of the government?

Chief Haymond, if I could start with you, do you have any comments on that?

[Chief Lance Haymond]

Inspection services and making sure that units are built to the national building code are key principles for us as first nations.

It depends on which region you come from and what capacities you have. I come from the Quebec region, where, fortunately, we have strong tribal councils. Communities like mine that are small communities and would not necessarily have the financial resources to hire all of the expertise that we need in housing are able to pool our resources and have them delivered under a tribal council. We have engineers, architects and building inspectors who work with and support our communities to ensure that our units are being built to the national building code.

It's key, because, at the end of the day, the housing needs are so great in our communities that we need to be building quality units that are going to last 25 years. If they don't, then that family, 10 to 15 years down the line when that house is condemned, is suddenly added back on the needs list, and the needs just continue to get larger.

I think it really depends on the province, region and jurisdiction. One of the key elements that we need to ensure, in being able to build to the national building code, is that we have the financial resources available so that we can build those units and, more importantly, have the technical support services available as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. That is your time, I'm afraid.

Next up is Ms. Bradford for two and a half minutes, please.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to direct my questions, please, to Chief Peters.

Last October, the Confederacy of Mainland Mi'kmaq signed an historic, co-developed framework agreement with the Government of Canada, with a goal to work together on the transfer, control, delivery and management of first nations housing and infrastructure services to participating Mi'kmaq first nations.

Can you explain what co-developed means and what the process was like working with the Government of Canada on this framework?

[Chief Sidney Peters]

I think one thing, when we talk about co-development, is everybody working together. I was part of that discussion right from the get-go.

One of the first things I talked about was whether there is a true commitment here from both parties—the tribal council as well as ISC. CMHC was also part of some of the discussions.

Things seem to be going well, but it seems to be taking longer, because we always seem to be changing parties on the other side of the table as things move forward. It's going, and it's moving forward, but it's slow. I'm always very concerned about timelines and not meeting schedules.

Basically, we are still behind it. I want to make sure there's still a commitment there and that things continue to move forward.

As you know, the Confederacy of Mainland Mi'kmaq represents eight communities here in Nova Scotia. You also have to ensure that leadership is well aware of how this all works and who is involved with it.

It is working, but it's very slow. Is the trust there? Well, when things go slow, leadership tries to figure out what is happening and how come things aren't moving faster.

There is a commitment. I'll always continue to try to push for a commitment as we move forward. It is moving, but not as fast as we'd like.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you.

How specific are the funding categories under this framework? How did you determine the categories?

[Chief Sidney Peters]

I ensured that the technical people really, truly understand how the system works. I wanted to ensure that we have a complete breakdown of how the existing system works now and how we want to change that system. Through that, we're talking to each of the communities to truly understand that.

What happens is that the federal government seems to say, “Here's an agreement, and this is what we want to do.” Does it really tell you the details on how it all works and how it operates?

With that, there is a responsibility of the government to ensure that the dollars and cents are there. We're finding it difficult that communities aren't receiving enough to make it work. It's important for the risk level at the Confederacy of Mainland Mi'kmaq to ensure that we have enough funding to take it over and operate it. We already know what happened in the past, and I don't want to see CMM fall into that as the federal government has.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

I now give the floor to Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné for two and a half minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to take this opportunity to thank all the witnesses for coming to talk to us today about a very important situation. I remind everyone that housing is not a privilege, but is in fact a right. The duty incumbent on all of us, as parliamentarians, is to make sure that the indigenous housing issue is solved as quickly as possible.

We had the opportunity to hear a great deal about the Yänonhchia’ program. It is a great example of a program that must be encouraged.

I also remind everyone of another very problematic aspect that we are talking about today. In spite of the investment of billions of dollars, no improvements have been noted in nine years. The situation is as dismal as ever.

Fundamentally, the question I want to ask you, Mr. Haymond, is on the approach.

One of the reasons that Yänonhchia’ works and is a model, in my opinion, is because indigenous people are in fact granted a certain autonomy, self-determination, that enables them to build and fund their own homes without going through financial institutions that don’t understand the reality on indigenous reserves. This type of example should be especially useful for the federal government. It continues to use a method I consider neocolonialist, which translates into housing units built by the federal government, as though indigenous people were incapable of doing it themselves.

Can you tell us how Yänonhchia’ is part of the paradigm in which indigenous people are able to organize themselves, not only in terms of funding and capital, as you said, but also in terms of human resources, for instance?

[Chief Lance Haymond]

I think we would have the full capacity to manage all of our affairs from start to finish if we were given that opportunity. We have spent a lot of time over the past number of years building our capacities up at different levels. As I mentioned, we work outside of our communities to have our members understand the importance of a credit rating and to have access to credit as a viable option going forward.

We also teach them about what it is, and the responsibilities that come with being a homeowner. We work with institutions. We work with our tribal councils in different ways to build up the capacities we need within our communities. We can have the conversations around takeover, care and control. In Quebec we have been working on a strategy that really speaks to that. The first thing is to build capacity at all levels.

The second is to look at different funding options with innovation, which exactly fits in with Yänonhchia' and the work we're doing there.

Finally, we know the government wants to get out of the business of delivering programs and services to our communities. They call it devolution. It's a dirty word in our world. What we would like to really talk about is takeover, care and control, and not just a program dump.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you. I suspect—

[Chief Lance Haymond]

I think we have the capacities to do those things ourselves.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you. I apologize for that. I suspect the next member will follow up on that.

Mr. Desjarlais, you're going to close us out here. You have the floor for about two and a half minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Again, thank you to all the witnesses. I do hope you can also supply written submissions related to our report in advance of our tabling that.

Grand Chief Cody Thomas, I want to give you an opportunity to speak directly to what you're hearing about from the chiefs you represent in Treaty 6 territory and what message you have for the government in terms of priorities related to housing, as well as any other priorities that are important for the government to hear.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Grand Chief, you're on mute.

That's good. As I say, when you want something done, do it yourself.

It's over to you, Grand Chief.

[Grand Chief Cody Thomas]

Exactly. I don't pay these guys the big bucks for nothing. No, I'm just kidding.

I think I'd like to stress the fact that when it comes to the equity side of things on reserve, we have a lot of banks that aren't allowing us to be funded through the conventional mortgage aspect. We have created a section 10 home-building opportunity for our members, but at the end of the day, we can't get equity out of these homes as well. I think one thing that would really help is a reporting mechanism to the credit bureau for our members who live on nation, so that they can build that capacity to possibly be able to afford a home off nation.

I think this is where the onus falls on us too: the home building code. It is within Treaty No. 6. When a lot of these home builders come in, they don't even provide home warranties, and that's something we need to get better at. We need to have a better standard. That's one key item.

I think we need to be looking at a mechanism of some kind of funding stream to work with all banks within Canada, so that we can give our current generations and the generations to come an opportunity to have a home. It is a treaty right, and it's a human right. I really appreciate the minister's speaking from the heart, because that was the intent of our treaty. If we don't put a dent in this now, when is it ever going to happen?

We will write a submission. We are going to possibly set some kind of template for Treaty No. 6 and possibly for Turtle Island. I commend the chiefs for putting in the work as well. At the end of the day, that's what we're here to do: put in the work.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Grand Chief.