Evidence of meeting #129 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was contracts.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:30 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Minister, you say that 95% of contracts are awarded on a non-competitive basis. Can you clarify whether that percentage is concerning the total amount spent on contracts or the number of contracts?
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
Just to be clear, it's the exact opposite. Ninety-five per cent are awarded under a competitive process.
5:30 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Okay. Is that the total amount spent on contracts or the number of contracts?
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
5:30 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
When we look at the report on McKinsey, we see that, often, the justification given for awarding a non-competitive contract is that the contract has a low value. In one case, the amount of the contract was less than $40,000. However, the Auditor General found that a practice that is now becoming more and more common in a number of departments, including National Defence, is that the first contract has a low value, but that subsequently, a number of contracts are awarded and the total amount spent becomes quite significant.
In one of the cases, for example, a first contract worth $22,000 was awarded, which we agree can be done by mutual agreement. However, three subsequent contracts were awarded on a non-competitive basis for the same service, bringing the total value of the contracts to $5 million. So the rules were circumvented by saying in the first case that it was a low-value contract, and then awarding a series of contracts, with each involving a small amount of money, but ultimately totalling $5 million for the same service. Can this type of practice continue at National Defence?
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
First of all, as I said in my earlier remarks, all of the standing offers with McKinsey and all other similar companies have ended. Those standing offers are concluded. We're not going to continue with that.
With respect to the actual mechanics of the procurements you've just spoken to, if I may, I would turn to my colleague, Mr. Crosby.
5:30 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Materiel Group, Department of National Defence
The scenario you've described in your question is a possibility. In some cases, it's justified and genuine that work will reveal the requirement for additional work scope, but they are considered riskier procurements. In our contract compliance oversight framework and with the oversight we're putting in place, those types of contract expansions or continuations would be flagged and require additional oversight.
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
5:30 p.m.
Bloc
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Okay, thank you very much.
Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
5:30 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Minister Blair, I want to describe to you and paint a picture of a scenario, and you tell me the logical solution to it.
Imagine there's an operable clinic that you're in charge of. At that clinic, let's say there are five health care professionals. Let's say those health care professionals have a lot of work going on. They're feeling like they may be under-compensated for their work. The solution to that, in some people's minds, may be to ensure that their working conditions are fair.
What if it became the recommendation of the person in charge of that place to actually hire a specialized group—another private company—to then sub-hire other persons who could replace the job of one of those health care professionals at a higher rate to fill the vacancy there?
Wouldn't it be more logical in your mind to just better support the public servants who are working there now?
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
Let me be very clear: I'm in complete agreement that we need to ensure that we support the public service, who do really important work for us.
5:30 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
You're saying that, Minister Blair, but the thing is that the situation I painted is a real situation happening under your watch. There are health care professionals on bases right now who are not being paid equitably or fairly. The government's response is too bad, so sad.
They've actually hired a contractor called Calian. Are you familiar with that company?
5:30 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Calian has been asked, as a professional service finder, to then look for replacement workers. Those replacement workers are taking the jobs of health care professionals who are already operating on bases. Worse yet, they're getting paid at a higher rate. They get paid more benefits, get paid over working holidays and have far more access to a work-life balance than those who are in the public service.
Don't you think that's a disservice to the public service? How can they take seriously your claim that you really value them when their jobs are being taken away, subcontracted away to Calian, which is now hiring public sector health workers and bringing them into the private system while we're paying, as taxpayers, a premium? How is that fair?
5:35 p.m.
Liberal
Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
First of all, Blake, I'm not familiar with the circumstances you described.
5:35 p.m.
NDP
5:35 p.m.
Liberal
Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
Listen, give me that information, and I'll look into it for you. I think it's really important.
First of all, I have a responsibility. Every member of the Canadian Armed Forces is exempt from the Canada Health Act. It is my responsibility to make sure that we provide them with adequate health care. I want to make sure that we do that—
5:35 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Can you commit to ending the contracting of private health care workers away from our public service?
5:35 p.m.
Liberal
Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
I don't have that information right now. Please share it with me, and I'll look into it.
5:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you. That is the time.
Next up is Mr. Nater for five minutes, please.
5:35 p.m.
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
Thank you, Chair, and through you, thank you to the minister for joining us here this afternoon.
Just to quickly pre-empt the potential Liberal gotcha moment that they may want to share in their next round, when they try to wave around David Yeo's membership card, they would know that Mr. Yeo's membership became dis-active and non-active the moment he ran for a different political party. That's just to try to pre-empt their gotcha moment. It ceased to be active once our party learned of his other party.
Again, Minister, thank you for joining us. First, has the RCMP contacted you directly about ArriveCAN?