Public Accounts Committee on June 6th, 2024

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Let me also remind you what the Auditor General noted: The ongoing and historic lack of investment, particularly in the decade before 2015, meant that not only were we not staunching the decline in housing on first nations, but, in fact, the gap was growing.

When we were elected, we increased funding by 185% for first nations housing and 1,100% overall for infrastructure. That speaks to the lack of attention that the previous Conservative government had for first nations people.

In fact, I encourage you, Mr. Melillo—

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

You've had nine years, Minister.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That is the time.

I'm going to turn now to Ms. Shanahan.

You have the floor for six minutes.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I thank the minister for being here with us on this very important topic, because, indeed, it is a long-standing problem.

We heard testimony the other day, going back to the early 2000s, about the structural problems in addressing housing needs on and off first nations reserves and also the chronic lack of funding, which I know our government has tried to address. It's not just one-size-fits-all, from what I'm gathering from the testimony that we're hearing.

This is the fourth OAG report on first nations housing calling for serious, systemic changes to the Government of Canada's supports and programs. It's clear that our existing systems have led us to this unacceptable housing gap.

We've heard a lot of allegations thrown around in this committee about who is to blame for allowing this to happen. I'd like to hear your perspective on how we reached this point.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much, Mrs. Shanahan, for your advocacy.

I will say this: The lack of infrastructure in first nations is a result of a colonial country that has failed to live up to its obligations—treaty or otherwise—to first nations people. There is a willfulness to doing that. Our government, under the leadership of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, decided we would tackle reconciliation in a real and sincere way.

In fact, compare that to the previous prime minister, Stephen Harper, who said that an inquiry into missing and murdered indigenous women was not on his radar. Compare that to MP Waugh, who said, when I introduced water legislation in the House a couple of months ago, that first nations people just burn down their water treatment plants anyway, so they themselves are to blame. These are the kinds of comments that indicate a colonial attitude—that the Government of Canada is wasting its money, quite frankly, in first nations, and that they don't deserve it.

You'll note that the Conservatives never ask a question in the House of Commons about indigenous priorities. When was the last time we heard a Conservative get up and ask about why there isn't more housing in first nations, why a particular boil water advisory hasn't been lifted or why there aren't better supports for first nations education? Those are all reasonable questions. I want to thank the NDP and the Bloc for asking questions about indigenous people. This is important, because it keeps it on the radar of Canadians. Canadians ultimately elect us. If they don't know what the problem is because their members of Parliament are not visiting communities in their own ridings, have never met those communities and don't know those people, it's very hard for them to do their job.

When a prime minister says reconciliation will be at the core of what we do, the hard work begins. That's exactly what's happened with this file. You know, since 2016, we've invested over $10 billion to support indigenous housing projects. In budget 2024, 25% of the new spend is on indigenous priorities. That's continued progress. Can we fix a system of colonialism in nine years? I don't believe we can. However, if you speak to many first nations people, they will say that things are better than they were, though we have a long way to go.

I would agree with that.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Well, I thank you for that.

My own riding borders Kahnawake. What was unthinkable, I would say, 10, 20 or 30 years ago is happening now. We have joint partnerships between community organizations in Châteauguay and community organizations in Kahnawake for supportive housing, for example, and youth in transition. This has been a game-changer in our relationship.

I really believe we need to start today. Today is the first day of making change.

We heard some very interesting testimony from Regional Chief Brendan Mitchell, who spoke about the collaboration between the AFN and Indigenous Services Canada to quantify the housing and infrastructure gap. I put the emphasis on “infrastructure”, because I think that's where things need to start.

Why was it important for the Government of Canada to be part of this report?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

It's important because, oftentimes, first nations organizations like the AFN may not have the fiscal or technical resources to quantify a gap like that. In fact, the Government of Canada—despite how difficult it is for many Canadians and, indeed, governments and members of Parliament to hear—believes we can't close a gap if we don't know the size of it. It is a commitment to first nations, quite frankly, to support that research, work with partners, provide funding to partners and do indigenous-led research on, in this case, the size of the infrastructure gap, so more communities like Châteauguay and Kahnawake can say, “This is all of our problem.”

I'm so glad you brought up your community and the work of reconciliation that happens at the municipal level. I have a similar story with Marathon and Biigtigong in Thunder Bay—Superior North. These are two northern communities that have worked together to develop a relationship. Friendships have become regular and routine. I go to wing night at the Legion, and there are many members of Biigtigong enjoying wings and beer with other members of Marathon. They have joint economic activities. They built a supportive living centre together. They are working on many exciting endeavours together. That happens through relationships. Biigtigong and Marathon—and I suspect Châteauguay and Kahnawake—are realizing that there's an economic advantage to reconciliation.

Listen, it is extremely expensive to keep people in poverty. When we start to realize that we're each other's people and come together in ways that are at all levels of government—as you just pointed out—there is such opportunity, not just in terms of better relationships and better outcomes for indigenous and non-indigenous people, but also for a better economy in Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Minister. That is the time.

Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you now have the floor for six minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, Madam Minister. Thank you for agreeing to appear before the committee again.

There is no denying that the committee has heard the figures often, and I don't want to go over them again. The Auditor General's report is very alarming when it comes to new housing construction. Everyone agrees on that, and you have accepted the recommendations in the report. Very little new housing has been built compared with what is needed. In addition, very few of the units that need major repairs have been renovated.

In your opening remarks you mentioned that, 150 years after confederation, you had finally arrived at the conclusion that the federal government should withdraw from indigenous issues as much as possible. I think that's a very good thing. However, one of the major obstacles to building indigenous housing and the development of first nations is found in the elements of the Indian Act.

I know this falls under the Department of Indigenous Services Canada and the Department of Crown‑Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs but, as minister, what are you doing to at least reduce the obstacles? You said you should withdraw from indigenous issues as much as possible and allow indigenous people to manage themselves.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you for the question.

Let's be clear. I think there is always going to be a role for the federal government to honour the treaties. I'm not sure if it's the translation, but “withdraw” may not be the exact translation that you mean.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

We're not going to start criticizing the interpreters. I just want you to answer my question.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

No, I'm not criticizing the interpreter. I'm just saying that the word “withdraw”.... I assume that's what you mean. What I would say is that there isn't a withdrawal from treaty. Treaties are actually agreements that are signed until the sun shines...forever, essentially.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Madam Minister, my question was very specific and was on the elements that are detrimental to first nations—

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

You asked me whether I agree that the government—

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

—in the Indian Act.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

—would withdraw, and I'm telling you that there isn't a concept that we could withdraw from treaty.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Mr. Chair—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

The minister knows full well—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Brock, this is not your time. Madame Sinclair-Desgagné is able to defend her round. You will have an opportunity to ask questions of the minister, but it is not now.

Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you have three minutes and thirty seconds.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Mr. Chair, I'd like to remind everyone that we are not here to criticize the interpreters, but to answer members' questions.

Madam Minister, I will say this for the second or third time: a number of elements in the Indian Act—the title alone is horrifying—undermine economic development and new housing construction. For example, it's impossible to get insurance from a bank to build new housing.

What are you doing about this? What is your government doing?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

That is exactly the approach our government has taken. In fact, although it is hated by many first nations people, and many people would like to see the elimination of the Indian Act, there are other first nations people who feel that until those protections—and there are some within the Indian Act—are established in other pieces of law, the act needs to remain and be dismantled piece by piece. Depending on who you speak to, you will hear different perspectives. That is why we've approached inherent rights through other legislation, like the child welfare legislation, which, I will point out, the Government of Quebec fought at the Supreme Court level and, in fact, lost. The federal government supported that legislation all the way through that Supreme Court process, which established an inherent right. Well, I shouldn't say that it established it; it actually restored the inherent right of first nations people to raise their children and families.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I see. Thank you.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

That is how we are approaching eliminating the Indian Act.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I pointed out an important element: that a bank can't seize a property. This is an obstacle right now with commercial banks. It's a barrier for someone on a reserve who wants to get a loan to insure their home, for example. I'm happy that you spoke about the Yänonhchia' program because the Bloc Québécois is pushing hard for this program.

Will you follow the example of this program and reduce the obstacles that the federal government is creating for first nations?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

The short answer is yes. That's the point behind things like the economic round table that we had just a week or two ago. It was hosted by the Bank of Canada, with attendance by all of the major banks, the First Nations Bank of Canada and the Infrastructure Bank, to talk about the barriers to accessing capital, including for housing, posed by various pieces of legislation but also by internal bank processes themselves. The enthusiasm in that meeting was such that, if I could have tapped that enthusiasm, I would have brought it with me everywhere.