Public Accounts Committee on June 6th, 2024

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Yes, there are a number of very important steps we've taken.

We've introduced much stricter requirements around suppliers being more transparent. As I said, we're strengthening our conflict of interest code for public servants. We've taken very seriously the Auditor General's report, and we're putting into action some of the recommendations. I have already articulated...the new questionnaire that's being provided. If the answer is yes to any of the six questions put to a new employee, they must submit a more detailed conflict of interest statement within 30 days.

We're also—I think this is important—strengthening training for our officials. Sometimes, the regimes around conflict of interest are not well understood. We're strengthening the training for our officials so they will be able to more readily comply with the requirements and expectations of all Canadians. It's also for management personnel, so they can be more alert to some of the challenges and steps that could be taken to mitigate any potential conflict—how to make sure we are maintaining and protecting the integrity of our procurement processes, and the businesses within our departments as well.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I think that's so important. When we talk about taxpayer dollars, we have to maintain the utmost respect for every single penny we spend as a government or as parliamentarians. I really appreciate that.

Deputy Minister Beck, you're new to your current role. Congratulations on taking it up. However, you're not new to the world of DND. You previously served as the associate deputy minister. Is that correct?

[Stefanie Beck]

Yes.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I wanted to give you a chance to explain how you will ensure compliance with ethics and the conflict-of-interest regime for public servants within your department.

[Stefanie Beck]

Thank you very much for the opportunity.

What I would like to stress is how much I plan to build on the excellent work done by my predecessors, notably just in the past few months and weeks. In addition to what the minister has outlined with some very new proposals around the code of conflict and a requirement within a certain time frame for new employees to respond, we're also creating a new oversight committee of procurement that will have a much more detailed and deliberate review of every contract that is over a certain amount.

Also, of course, there is the training that the minister referred to. At the moment, what we have is a process whereby staff are trained before they get there. For instance, for their financial delegation, this tends to be at a moment in time. What we're looking at for the future is a more regular, routine and repetitive set of training requirements rather than a one-off. Then we just hope that the person continues to deliver as they should.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I appreciate that. I realize that the majority of our public servants are very honourable people, and they work very hard to take care of Canadians. Especially during the pandemic, we saw just how much they went above and beyond.

While I say that, I also want to dive a bit deeper into holding people to account. How would you hold public servants to account if they found themselves with a conflict of interest?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

When such conflicts arise, it is incumbent upon the member themselves to declare that conflict. If they have failed to meet the standards, I think there have to be high levels of accountability. I think Canadians expect that of us.

I've always been very mindful. I've had a number of jobs in my life where I've been responsible for spending the public's money, and I have always thought it was incumbent upon us to make sure that we be transparent and open with them to ensure that they're getting good value. When there are issues, when someone does not follow the rules, there would have to be consequences that are quite serious and public.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Minister.

Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, go ahead for six minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Good afternoon, minister. Thank you for accepting our invitation.

Could you just give me the date of Mr. Yeo's resignation?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I may turn to one of our officials, but—

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Could you just give me the date, please?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

—I believe it was March 3 of this year. As I said, he was suspended immediately. I have Isabelle with me.... It was March 5. He was suspended immediately because of this information. He was scheduled to come in to deal with his employment, and he resigned on March 5.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you.

I understand that he resigned after the newspaper articles appeared, not after the Auditor General's report was tabled. The report was tabled on February 7, so it took a month for Mr. Yeo to resign.

I want to clarify that you were the minister when Mr. Yeo was hired in the public service, in the Department of Defence. He appeared before the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates on October 31, 2023, to testify as an individual about his company Dalian Enterprises, while he was an employee of National Defence. He came as the CEO of Dalian while he was a public servant. You were also the minister at that time. So we have to step back a little in that regard.

I also have a quick question about the various departments you have worked in. How often did you speak with Mr. Ossowski during the time of the ArriveCAN audit and also during the time when you were Minister of Public Safety and Mr. Ossowski was president of the Canada Border Services Agency?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I had a number of discussions with the president of CBSA at that time, but, as I hope I made clear in my opening remarks, I was not in any way involved in any of the HR practices, such as the hiring or firing of employees. That is the responsibility of the deputy minister or deputy minister head of their organization. Similarly, I was not involved in the issuance of any contracts in my ministerial position.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

What is relevant is that there is not just one thing that went wrong. A lot of things in succession have gone wrong at the Department of National Defence. At some point, we say to ourselves that there is the responsibility of deputy ministers and employers, who are public servants, yes, but there is also what we call ministerial accountability. That accountability belongs to you at the Department of National Defence, but it also belonged to you when you were Minister of Public Safety. Everything that happened with ArriveCAN at the Canada Border Services Agency was under your ministerial accountability while you were the Minister of Public Safety.

My question about how often you spoke with Mr. Ossowski leads me to wonder if he has ever spoken to you about whistle-blowers who have reported issues to the Canada Border Services Agency. I'm thinking in particular of what we now suspect, which was reported by a whistle-blower, namely widespread corruption within the agency. When you were Minister of Public Safety, did you or did you not hear about these allegations from whistle-blowers?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

No, ma'am.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Okay.

An important point is that Botler AI formally submitted its complaint to the Canada Border Services Agency in September 2021, while you were still Minister of Public Safety. Did Mr. Ossowski or anyone from the agency speak to you, as the minister responsible, about the complaint that had been filed by Botler AI?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

The answer to your question is no.

I would point out that we were in what is often referred to as a “caretaker convention” because of the election campaign. The writ had been dropped in September 2021.

However, I did not have any conversation.... I was, throughout that entire period of time, the Minister of Public Safety, but I did not have any conversation with the president of CBSA, Mr. Ossowski, during that period of time with respect to that issue.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you for your direct answers, but don't you think that the minister responsible should normally be aware of major complaints? I am thinking in particular of the whistle-blower Luc Sabourin, who was still having problems with the Canada Border Services Agency. His pension was not paid for years. I am also thinking of Botler AI, which complained about the agency.

I am really putting the question to you, as a senior minister, if I may say so: Don't you think that this should be a ministerial responsibility and that the minister should be aware of this type of information?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Yes, if I may be very clear, first of all, I am not the deputy lead of CBSA. That was, in fact, Mr. Ossowski, and that was his job.

However, let me be very clear as well that as a rather senior minister of government, my expectation is that I am always responsible for what takes place within the organizations or agencies under my ministerial authority, but I don't have authority with respect to the personnel matters you've referred to and, unfortunately, at that time, that information was not brought to my attention.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

As a senior member of your government, you must have noticed that this is something we are now seeing across government, and it is really unfortunate. We are seeing the same thing with Sustainable Development Technology Canada.

The government is losing control of agencies and losing control of what is fundamentally going on in its own departments. We wonder whether ministers are aware of what is happening on a daily basis in their own departments, and it's happening everywhere. In addition, the Department of National Defence unfortunately looks pretty bad in the Auditor General's report. About 50% of actual conflicts of interest—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Make it short, please.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

—that the Auditor General found occurred in the Department of National Defence. You mentioned a number of things about conflicts of interest and your regulations, but this is still a rather alarming finding about the Department of National Defence.

What do you think of the Auditor General's latest report, specifically as it relates to McKinsey?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Well, first of all, I have never as a minister of government ever directed anyone or authorized anyone to disobey the rules, the very strong, rigorous, appropriate and necessary rules that are in place for the conduct of the business of each of our departments, but when the Auditor General does her very important work in identifying deficiencies in the way that work is being done, it is the responsibility of the minister, in this case, to ensure the departments respond in an appropriate way, as I've already articulated. I won't waste the committee's time by going over it again. We listened very carefully to the auditor's report, and we've taken action in response to the deficiencies she identified, which I think is my responsibility, and I've shared with this committee that we have acted.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for six minutes. Go ahead, please.