Public Accounts Committee on June 6th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Minister.

Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, the floor is yours for two and a half minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I'll ask you a specific question: What do you say to the recommendation we heard earlier this week that Parliament should pass a bill whereby the Indian Act should be abolished within the next 10 years?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I would like to hear from first nations in a larger way. Not everybody has the same perspective on how to do that in a way that protects the rights enshrined within the Indian Act. As repulsive as that act is to many people, what I have heard from some first nations leaders is that it also has protections that need to be enshrined in other ways.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

That's perfect. Do you have a specific timeline for a comprehensive reform of the Indian Act? Do you have a timeline, a deadline or something you could share with the committee on the reforms you plan to make to that act?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

What first nation leaders tell me is that the way we are going about this—creating specific legislation, like the child welfare legislation, which restores the inherent rights of indigenous people to care for their own children and families—is the right way to do this. It allows for a controlled dismantling of the Indian Act that puts control back in first nations in a timeline that makes sense to them. It provides certainty around funding models, and it provides the supports that first nations say they need in order to do a thorough consultation and design of those systems for their communities.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Have you noticed that the best initiatives between first nations peoples and newcomers, if we can call them that, French or English, whatever, are often in Quebec? That's according to the Auditor General's report and Mr. Haymond's testimony. That is where we see that Quebec and the people of Quebec have done some nice things for indigenous peoples, whether we are talking about the Yänonhchia' program or the peace of the braves agreement.

Don't you think the federal government should draw inspiration from such actions, as well as from a much more nation-to-nation approach, as we have done in Quebec?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I think that is exactly the approach we're taking, a nation-to-nation relationship with first nations people. I would also say that there is fantastic work happening on creating the tools that first nations people are saying they need to fully capitalize from the economy of Canada.

I'll point to the $5-billion loan guarantee that was announced in budget 2024, which was roundly applauded by first nations leaders and first nations businesses. They say that now they will have the economic tool, the capital tool, that they need to be able to fully participate in major infrastructure and major energy projects across this country.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much, ladies.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for two and a half minutes, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Just the other day, we spoke to one of the country's probably most modern Indian agents ever in our history, Michael Wernick. His testimony was extreme in its approach, not just to his time at Privy Council, his advice to cabinet and his advice to the Prime Minister's Office on this tremendous need to move past the Indian Act; he even recommended that it should be abolished within 10 years. Then he criticized the sitting government and said it does not have the will to do what he has recommended.

He's the same gentleman who had largely been the deputy minister for the years that these audits have been presented to them, from 2003 to today under his watch. He then recommended this insidious approach that has largely made up the mandate of the reconciliation process that's undertaken by the government today. This issue he presented, that the courts were being utilized rightly by indigenous people who are seeking justice, was that the government was losing billions of dollars and finding itself in a position where its liability was being challenged, and there needed to be a risk-management approach to this liability. It's a very disgusting way to speak about human rights breaches in our country, to measure things down to who is liable and how the government can risk assess its liability out of this.

These are real conversations that I know are present in your ministry and also between you and the Ministry of Justice. You often get briefing notes from the Ministry of Justice and memorandums that seek to limit the risk that is present in government agreements that you sign on behalf of the Crown with indigenous people.

I'll ask again, who is liable when care and control is transferred to an indigenous government?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I think I'll answer broadly, but I would say that no agreement is signed without the full participation of the partner organization or first nation.

I'll turn to Mr. Barbosa.

[Nelson Barbosa]

Thanks for the follow-up question.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I have a minute left, so can you please just answer the question?

[Nelson Barbosa]

The first point is who the agreement is with. The transfer of care and control is not a devolution or a transfer of responsibility from the Government of Canada to a first nation. What's happening in Atlantic Canada and across the country is the establishment of organizations like the Assembly of First Nations, which work with first nations to support the administration—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

If an indigenous government is to litigate under these new agreements, like they have in the past, who is liable?

[Nelson Barbosa]

The litigation prerogative still remains with first nations. The relationship with Canada shifts to the organization that first nations decide to stand up. Those organizations, like in the Atlantic context, manage water—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

In other words, it means the responsibility and the liability shift to the organization from the Government of Canada.

[Nelson Barbosa]

No. It's about the relationship. The relationship changes from the first nation to the organization that the first nation determines it wants to run its systems.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That is the time, I'm afraid.

Mr. Nater, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and through you, thank you to our witnesses for joining us.

In a previous line of questioning, Mr. Brock brought up a very local example from his area about mould, something that we heard about through the Auditor General's report. One thing the Auditor General noted very strongly was that there was no indication of when or why or for what reasons the 2008 mould strategy ceased to operate. We have asked this question of your deputy minister. We have asked this question of the former Clerk of the Privy Council and the former deputy minister of the department. We have yet to receive a clear answer.

You've now had several weeks since this report was tabled. Can you tell us why the mould strategy is no longer being used?

[Gina Wilson, Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services]

If I may, Mr. Chair, a number of years ago there was a specific mould strategy. At a certain point in time, we decided, with the participation of first nations, to make that particular funding stream as flexible as possible. If they want to invest in mould, if they want to invest in housing, if they want to invest in lot remediation or what have you, it is in the purview of first nations to decide.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

That's really not an answer to when it actually stopped being used. When was it stopped?

[Gina Wilson]

It gradually diminished over a number of years. There's no precise time when it stopped.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I think the point the deputy is making is that, in the true spirit of self-determination, when you have prescriptive programs that define for first nations how exactly this particular line of money must be used, first nations have often said that this is not helpful. As you know, mould remediation has a number of different steps along the way, including the protection of homes from the ongoing onslaught of water, which, by the way, is an increasing challenge as it relates to climate change.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

In the Auditor General's report, she said, “Overall, we found that, among communities of similar sizes, communities with the poorest housing conditions received less targeted funding than those with better housing.” When we talk about the situation that we find ourselves in here today, why is it that those in the most need are actually the ones receiving the least amount of funding?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I'll turn to Mr. Barbosa to answer that question.